weight loss versus muscle mass loss

[dbs]

It is said that to loose weight more quickly lift weights so you can gain muscle. Since muscle burns fat, having more muscle helps accelerate fat loss.

But it is also said that while loosing weight you also loose muscle in the process. It can't be avoided. This appears to be a contradiction. How can you say, lift weights to gain muscle to loose weight but also say loosing weight atrophies muscle.

Can someone shed some light on this issue?

[phat chick]

This is an excellent question and most definitely deserves an answer. But to explain it i need to get my ol' noodle working LOL so i can type something that would be both informative AND make sense ;-P

I will get back to this.

[BiggerGuns=LongerDrives]

If you lose weight the wrong way, then yes, you will sacrifice muscle.
However, if you do it the right way you can preserve most of your lean muscle.
To lose weight, you dont have to lose muscle, thats the bottom line


[EDIT] - Oops, just saw your response Phatty, I am sure you can explain it alot better.

[RyanLRams]

I am doing 30 minutes of cardio with 10 minutes of interval training mixed in (5m @ 3.5mph, 10m @ int: 1m 7.5mph/1m 3.5mph alt, 13m @ 3.5mph, 2m @ 7.5mph). How is this for burning fat and preserving muscle?

[narcsarge]

Don't complicate this.

Eat 4 to 6 balanced meals a day. Working out 3 days a week for 45-60 minutes, 3 days a week doing some sort of Cardio for 35 minutes. You can lose weight and add muscle. I am willing to be that most of us on this board have done this. Now, will you be cut or competition ready, that where things take a turn to Comlicated City.

If I can go from 198lbs to 165 in 3 years and see steady increase in my lift numbers, I am pretty sure others can and have done the same. I saw my waist go from 36 to 32".

[mitchcumstein]

Atrophy defined

Atrophy is the partial or complete wasting away of a part of the body. Causes of atrophy include:

1 poor nourishment,
2 poor circulation,
3 loss of hormonal support,
4 loss of nerve supply to the target organ,
5 disuse or lack of exercise or
6 disease intrinsic to the tissue itself


2 and 6 will be taken care of with exercise, 4 and 6 are pretty much N/A.

For your purposes you really need only be concerned with 1 and 3 and those are caused by a phenomenon called catabolism. Its when your body is low on nutrients or high in stress so it decides to breakdown muscle for energy. Eating large amounts of protein will remedy number 1. As for number 3, dieting is stressful to the body and causes it to release a few different stress hormones. Not running too much of a caloric deficit, eating frequently, and not exercisisng on an empty stomach will help in this dept.

[RyanLRams]

Originally Posted by narcsarge

If I can go from 198lbs to 165 in 3 years and see steady increase in my lift numbers, I am pretty sure others can and have done the same. I saw my waist go from 36 to 32".

I know I didn't put on all this weight in 6 months, but that is my goal to lose it. I want to do in 6 months what you did in 3 years. I need to complicate it a little...


Thanks for that info Mitchcumstein. I didn't know that and it is good knowledge!

[narcsarge]

Mitch just summed up (in a more detailed way) what I was saying. I took things slowly because I had no need or desire to drop weight fast. You want to do things quickly read up on cutting diets! Other then Carb Rotating diets, cutting diets just reduce the amount of food you are consuming, restricting complex carbs to certain meals, and all but eliminating fats. You don't need all that restriction but if you want to I am sure others can tighten things up for you. Post what your diet is now, be precise. Be accurate. BE HONEST.

[phat chick]

You know who would be awesome at answering this question? Layne Norton (str8flexed). He has a talent for explaining complicated scientific processes in a way that people understand. And he is one of the top “gurus” of our time. Spend some time googling his articles as well as those of Eric Broser (bodyfx2), who happens to be my trainer LOL but he is good (and no i don’t get paid for this LOL).

There is no way i can do justice to this question like the people above could, but they don’t post on this forum (i think). But i can say this, if this is your goal, there is some general advice to follow but there is no ONE specific method that will work for everyone.

Pretty much most athletes and especially physique athletes periodize their training so they can maximize muscle growth while eating a surplus of calories, and maintaining muscle while shedding bodyfat. Extended periods of dieting will eventually take it’s toll on muscles to some degree, that’s why bodybuilders go through cycles where they focus more on one aspect (fat loss before a competition) or muscle building (off-season).

It seems contradictory to be able to build muscle and create a state while you’re consuming less calories in order to burn fat. While this seems impossible (going in two opposite directions at once), changing your body composition gets to be a lot more complicated than calories in + or – calories out.

To build muscle you need to create an environment of positive nitrogen balance (and not necessarily just consuming random huge amounts of calories). This means that the body retains dietary proteins in order to repair & build muscle fibers.

Weight loss---specifically FAT burning----- involves creating a caloric deficit by BOTH diet and exercise. Training stimulates your metabolism (especially high intensity exercise). What happens to your muscles when you don’t use them? They atrophy (regardless of diet). Using your muscle (primarily weight training but also cardio exercises) stimulates your body to hang on to them, and make an effort to repair & strengthen them even while dieting. Your body will otherwise sacrifice “metabolically expensive” muscle tissue while in a caloric deficit.

So then, dietary quality, quantity, macronutrient intake and especially meal TIMING (eating frequently and also the importance of your PWO meal), become extremely important to maximize fat loss while retaining (and developing) muscle. Granted you’re not going to get to be “super-sized” while dieting, improvements can be made. There are a dozen different variables as to what any specific person’s diet would optimally look like to achieve this.

Insulin, cortisol, growth hormone, etc... and a few other hormones would also have a huge impact on your success and ability to either create, preserve or lose muscle tissue while in a caloric deficit.

Also, by using dietary techniques like carb cycling, or “re-feed” days (or “cheat days” for some) trigger several metabolic processes (increase leptin, glycogen storage, etc) that also have their role in the big picture.

I’m sorry, this is really glazing over things. I admit defeat with this question---it’s a loaded question and to have a really good “proper” answer is more advanced than i can provide.

[RyanLRams]

MY DIET:

630 - 2 servings protein shake (ON Gold Standard), 1 serving quick oats cooked in water with diced dried apricots and slivered almonds.

9am - 1 cup of my chicken stew (24g carb, 34g pro, 3.5 g fat)
(All In one Burger Stew)

12pm - 1 cup of my chicken stew

3pm - (try) eat a turkey sandwich on whole grain bread with little bit of mayo and mustard

430pm - workout

6pm - post workout shake (another two servings of ON Gold Standard)

730 - chicken breast, crown of broccoli

before bed - 1 cup of non-fat cottage cheese

I drink at least 1 gallon of water a day
multi-vitamin and fish oil and bcaa supp.

[BiggerGuns=LongerDrives]

Nice reply! Well worth a bump

Originally Posted by phat chick

You know who would be awesome at answering this question? Layne Norton (str8flexed). He has a talent for explaining complicated scientific processes in a way that people understand. And he is one of the top “gurus” of our time. Spend some time googling his articles as well as those of Eric Broser (bodyfx2), who happens to be my trainer LOL but he is good (and no i don’t get paid for this LOL).

There is no way i can do justice to this question like the people above could, but they don’t post on this forum (i think). But i can say this, if this is your goal, there is some general advice to follow but there is no ONE specific method that will work for everyone.

Pretty much most athletes and especially physique athletes periodize their training so they can maximize muscle growth while eating a surplus of calories, and maintaining muscle while shedding bodyfat. Extended periods of dieting will eventually take it’s toll on muscles to some degree, that’s why bodybuilders go through cycles where they focus more on one aspect (fat loss before a competition) or muscle building (off-season).

It seems contradictory to be able to build muscle and create a state while you’re consuming less calories in order to burn fat. While this seems impossible (going in two opposite directions at once), changing your body composition gets to be a lot more complicated than calories in + or – calories out.

To build muscle you need to create an environment of positive nitrogen balance (and not necessarily just consuming random huge amounts of calories). This means that the body retains dietary proteins in order to repair & build muscle fibers.

Weight loss---specifically FAT burning----- involves creating a caloric deficit by BOTH diet and exercise. Training stimulates your metabolism (especially high intensity exercise). What happens to your muscles when you don’t use them? They atrophy (regardless of diet). Using your muscle (primarily weight training but also cardio exercises) stimulates your body to hang on to them, and make an effort to repair & strengthen them even while dieting. Your body will otherwise sacrifice “metabolically expensive” muscle tissue while in a caloric deficit.

So then, dietary quality, quantity, macronutrient intake and especially meal TIMING (eating frequently and also the importance of your PWO meal), become extremely important to maximize fat loss while retaining (and developing) muscle. Granted you’re not going to get to be “super-sized” while dieting, improvements can be made. There are a dozen different variables as to what any specific person’s diet would optimally look like to achieve this.

Insulin, cortisol, growth hormone, etc... and a few other hormones would also have a huge impact on your success and ability to either create, preserve or lose muscle tissue while in a caloric deficit.

Also, by using dietary techniques like carb cycling, or “re-feed” days (or “cheat days” for some) trigger several metabolic processes (increase leptin, glycogen storage, etc) that also have their role in the big picture.

I’m sorry, this is really glazing over things. I admit defeat with this question---it’s a loaded question and to have a really good “proper” answer is more advanced than i can provide.

[phat chick]

Tommy, i think you're my #1 fan!! *w*

[BiggerGuns=LongerDrives]

Originally Posted by phat chick

Tommy, i think you're my #1 fan!! *w*

Haha maybe so

Check out your thread I created back in August over at the other place

Mightysworld Discussion Forums

[phat chick]

LOL i was wondering where this thread was!

Well. I am HUGELY flattered *blushing*

I actually placed 4th in that show (1st at the previous show). Not that i'm complaining----it's Nationals where you can get the elusive ifbb pro card. Fourth place is good!

[BiggerGuns=LongerDrives]

Originally Posted by phat chick

LOL i was wondering where this thread was!

Well. I am HUGELY flattered *blushing*

I actually placed 4th in that show (1st at the previous show). Not that i'm complaining----it's Nationals where you can get the elusive ifbb pro card. Fourth place is good!

You are very close then right?
Dont you have to place 1st at Nationals to get your card????

[phat chick]

Well, in Canada...you have to win the overall. So that means placing 1st and THEN winning against the 1st from the other height classes.

Sometimes if "they" feel like it, they will award a secondary procard to the girl they feel should go on. In some circles this is known as the Pity Procard LOL. Sounds kinda mean... all those girls work so hard so really, it's not a "bad" thing.

In the US they award more procards...i think to the top 3 of every class at the highest nationals. BUT... there are FAR more atheltes. I think if Canada did this, there would be too many girls making the leap to pro who wouldn't necessarily be ready for it.

Sometimes i fantasize about it but really, that is a BIG leap. I could use a couple more years at this level for sure before even thinking about that.

[dbs]

Originally Posted by phat chick

You know who would be awesome at answering this question? Layne Norton (str8flexed). He has a talent for explaining complicated scientific processes in a way that people understand. And he is one of the top “gurus” of our time. Spend some time googling his articles as well as those of Eric Broser (bodyfx2), who happens to be my trainer LOL but he is good (and no i don’t get paid for this LOL).

There is no way i can do justice to this question like the people above could, but they don’t post on this forum (i think). But i can say this, if this is your goal, there is some general advice to follow but there is no ONE specific method that will work for everyone.

Pretty much most athletes and especially physique athletes periodize their training so they can maximize muscle growth while eating a surplus of calories, and maintaining muscle while shedding bodyfat. Extended periods of dieting will eventually take it’s toll on muscles to some degree, that’s why bodybuilders go through cycles where they focus more on one aspect (fat loss before a competition) or muscle building (off-season).

It seems contradictory to be able to build muscle and create a state while you’re consuming less calories in order to burn fat. While this seems impossible (going in two opposite directions at once), changing your body composition gets to be a lot more complicated than calories in + or – calories out.

To build muscle you need to create an environment of positive nitrogen balance (and not necessarily just consuming random huge amounts of calories). This means that the body retains dietary proteins in order to repair & build muscle fibers.

Weight loss---specifically FAT burning----- involves creating a caloric deficit by BOTH diet and exercise. Training stimulates your metabolism (especially high intensity exercise). What happens to your muscles when you don’t use them? They atrophy (regardless of diet). Using your muscle (primarily weight training but also cardio exercises) stimulates your body to hang on to them, and make an effort to repair & strengthen them even while dieting. Your body will otherwise sacrifice “metabolically expensive” muscle tissue while in a caloric deficit.

So then, dietary quality, quantity, macronutrient intake and especially meal TIMING (eating frequently and also the importance of your PWO meal), become extremely important to maximize fat loss while retaining (and developing) muscle. Granted you’re not going to get to be “super-sized” while dieting, improvements can be made. There are a dozen different variables as to what any specific person’s diet would optimally look like to achieve this.

Insulin, cortisol, growth hormone, etc... and a few other hormones would also have a huge impact on your success and ability to either create, preserve or lose muscle tissue while in a caloric deficit.

Also, by using dietary techniques like carb cycling, or “re-feed” days (or “cheat days” for some) trigger several metabolic processes (increase leptin, glycogen storage, etc) that also have their role in the big picture.

I’m sorry, this is really glazing over things. I admit defeat with this question---it’s a loaded question and to have a really good “proper” answer is more advanced than i can provide.

Hey PC, what a reply!! Thanks! It is a bit complicated. To loose weight you need to create a deficit, as you said. And you'd like the body to burn the stored fat and not the muscle. As narcsarge stated going slow may be the key, if you're not in a hurry. But probably while going slow you're also going through several mini cycles (loss/rebuild) and not aware of it. Just a thought.

Anyway for me, if I loose some muscle mass the world won't stop. I'd just like to get my BF% down below 13% and land at about 185. To do that I need to maintain my current lean mass. Or, perhaps, drop the weight first (albeit with some loss of lean) and then build the lean back up without gaining fat. Hmmm?? This sounds like the same problem only in reverse.