Fair Tax

[Jamiel]

Originally Posted by na_feu

Correction, richest 1% that still earn a salary. The actual richest 1% of our population live off non-taxable income such as investments (also known as wealth). So the "richest 1%" actually refers to high achievers such as doctors, lawyers, scientists etc. (Just to clarify)

The real rich in America are the top half of the top 1% ( earning over 550,000 a year). These are for the most part are people born into wealth and not doctors, lawyers, scientists etc.

[na_feu]

Originally Posted by Jamiel

The real rich in America are the top half of the top 1% ( earning over 550,000 a year). These are for the most part are people born into wealth and not doctors, lawyers, scientists etc.

According to the IRS, if you make $174,850+ per year, you fall into the "rich" tax bracket and will be taxed 35%. This is the current income tax in 2007 for the highest tax bracket. From 1993-2000 during Clinton's reign, this income bracket was taxed 39.6%.
The average Dentist earns $153,000 per year.
The average physician earns about $160,000 per year.
The average entry level attorney earns $103,000 per year.
We don't even have to cover entreprenuers...

Lets say a Dentist marries a Physician, together they earn $313,000 per year and get to enjoy the splendor of "taxation on the rich".
OR, if that Dentist marries a garbage man who earns $30,000 per year, they still make $183,000 together and too get enjoy the highest tax bracket.

What I'm saying is that raising taxes on the "rich" obviously stands for "raising taxes on the upper middle class" aka high achievers. The "rich" could give a rats about taxes because they don't earn salaries, they accumulate wealth via existing wealth.
Q: Why do politicians want to raise taxes? Is it because they are generous and want to give their money?
A: Because it doesn't affect them. It will affect YOU Mr. law student, and you Mrs. pet store owner.
(Now this might not have much to do with what your talking about in regards to the top 1%, just wanted to throw it out there.)

And EARNING is different than MAKING. If you are born into wealth you are MAKING, not EARNING.

[MindFreak]

Originally Posted by khrolix

Terrible idea.That sort of tax will in no way replenish the amount of money being lost from our current progressive tax system. Sales tax alone would not even be able to take care of Social Security. You cant just jump right into a different tax system, it requires a slow, exponential lean-in before it can be implemented and then be finalized; time equals money, which will then put our economy in an even bigger debt. The only tax system that would not be a bad idea is a flat tax, which has been proven to work in other countries already; but realistically, it might take several years before a flat tax becomes part of the U.S. Sure it seems good, but from looking at that bill it is not realistic at all.

that's totally wrong. the government would make just as much as it does now. do the math. think about how much money americans spent last year (2006). put it this way. they spent 170 Billion on ecommerce alone. that is just stuff purchased online. think of how many trillions of dollars were spent. now tax that a rate of 23%. crazy amounts of money. someone said people will horde money. some will im sure. but you can only horde so much. everyone has to buy stuff. now matter how many people "horde" money consumer spending will be roughly the same every year. give or take a couple of percent. im in the finanical industry. i know how much money we are talking. the government would by no means be at a loss.

not to mention business's would no longer be taxed. this means they dont have to outsource work overseas to avoid huge taxes. bring those jobs back over here and that means more jobs for AMERICANS. more jobs means more people have money to spend. they spend money and the government makes more money. snowball effect.... business's do not really pay taxes anyway. well technically they do but they pass the cost onto the consumer. the tax would be capped at 23%. it cant go higher than that. not 35%. the more business's make. the more people they higher. the more their products sell the cheaper they become. the less taxes they have to pay the less they have to charge. its basic financial principles. i urge you all to read and think about this before casting it aside. everybody is a winner here. not just republicans, not just democrats, not just the rich, not just the poor.

lets say for arguments sake you get $500 a week taken out of your check in taxes (under the current system). that's $500 in YOUR pocket that you would keep. you can do what you want with it. now you have that extra cash every week, you go buy a new car. taxed. you go by a new tv taxed. your argument is totally plain wrong. the government will not make any less than it does now. this will stop tax hungry politicians (cough cough hiliary clinton) from raising your taxes on a whim. someone on here said business's would be forced to become tax collectors. they already are. how do you think state sales tax gets paid? the economy would thrive. it would soar. of course there will be loopholes arent there loopholes now? duh. we will just have to close the loopholes are we find them. this is fair. everyone makes out. one thing i dont like is (like na_feu said) Who determines what qualifies as "spending below the poverty level"? but other than that everyone wins on this system. everybody. the poor, the wealthy, business, middle class everyone. the ecomony would boom like it has never boomed before. i know it wont ever happen. at least not anytime soon. our government wont ever make a complete change like that unless millions of people were standing in the streets demanding it.

[MindFreak]

Originally Posted by Jamiel

Sounds good, but the extremely should still have to pay an added tax on their wealth....not income.

spoken like a true liberal

[MindFreak]

Originally Posted by GetFit

As sad as it is. You will never, ever get rid of the IRS. The fact that we are even talking about this places you in great great danger.

i am not even going to comment on that complete nonsense

[MindFreak]

Originally Posted by Taekwondo Guy

some interesting points on fair tax, like the trillions of dollars outside the US banking system to avoid costly taxes, under the fairtax scheme this would bring them back thus reducing inflation and borrowing rates


Quote:
In addition, an estimated $11 trillion is held in foreign accounts (largely for tax purposes), which former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan predicts would be repatriated back to U.S. banks if the FairTax were enacted, becoming available to U.S. capital markets, bringing down interest rates, and otherwise promoting economic growth in the United States

Quote:
Since the FairTax would not tax used goods, the value would be determined by the supply and demand in relation to new goods.[56] The price differential / margins between used and new goods would stay consistent, as the cost and value of used goods are in direct relationship to the cost and value of the new goods. Because the U.S. tax system has a hidden effect on prices, it is expected that moving to the FairTax would decrease production costs from the removal of business taxes and compliance costs, which is predicted to offset a portion of the FairTax effect on prices.[4]

i am happy to see that someone actually did their homework instead of just knocking the idea without even knowing what they are talking about. great quotes TKG.

[Jamiel]

Originally Posted by na_feu

According to the IRS, if you make $174,850+ per year, you fall into the "rich" tax bracket and will be taxed 35%. This is the current income tax in 2007 for the highest tax bracket. From 1993-2000 during Clinton's reign, this income bracket was taxed 39.6%.
The average Dentist earns $153,000 per year.
The average physician earns about $160,000 per year.
The average entry level attorney earns $103,000 per year.
We don't even have to cover entreprenuers...

Lets say a Dentist marries a Physician, together they earn $313,000 per year and get to enjoy the splendor of "taxation on the rich".
OR, if that Dentist marries a garbage man who earns $30,000 per year, they still make $183,000 together and too get enjoy the highest tax bracket.

What I'm saying is that raising taxes on the "rich" obviously stands for "raising taxes on the upper middle class" aka high achievers. The "rich" could give a rats about taxes because they don't earn salaries, they accumulate wealth via existing wealth.
Q: Why do politicians want to raise taxes? Is it because they are generous and want to give their money?
A: Because it doesn't affect them. It will affect YOU Mr. law student, and you Mrs. pet store owner.
(Now this might not have much to do with what your talking about in regards to the top 1%, just wanted to throw it out there.)

And EARNING is different than MAKING. If you are born into wealth you are MAKING, not EARNING.

What the IRS calls Rich and what is rich are two different things.

Raising taxes on the top 1/2 of the top 1% is a great and fair thing. 175K is not Rich in America it is just upper middle class. The real problem is the top 1% do not even pay 35%, they have all kinds of angles to pay much less.

[Jamiel]

Single tax brackets

0 - 7,825......... ....10%
7,825 - 31,850.......15%
31,850 - 77,100......25%
77,100 - 160,850 ...28%
160,850- 349,700 ...33%
349,700+ .............35%

It looks fair too me except the people making 7,825 or less should pay 0%.
And the wealthy making 349,700+ should pay much more, about 50%.

Punishing success??? I think not, most if not all of them had great advantages in life do to the very wealthy families they came from. Now they can pay the country back for those advantages 95-99% of us did not have.

[MindFreak]

Originally Posted by Jamiel

It looks fair too me except the people making 7,825 or less should pay 0%.
And the wealthy making 349,700+ should pay much more, about 50%.

Punishing success??? I think not, most if not all of them had great advantages in life do to the very wealthy families they came from. Now they can pay the country back for those advantages 95-99% of us did not have.

again, spoken like a true liberal.

people who think like you make me sick. what you really want to say is "Now they can get up everyday at 5am, commute 1 1/2 hours to work, bust their ass all day then give half of what the EARN
to a bunch of slobs who sit around all day, dont work and leech off of the hard working americans.

[MindFreak]

Originally Posted by Jamiel

Now they can pay the country back for those advantages 95-99% of us did not have.

that's such a lame liberal talking point. i earn in the top tier and i didnt have any special privledges. i had no advantage that everyone didnt have. i joined the military at 18, got out went to college and got a series of jobs until i landed where i am now. anyone reading this could have done the same thing. most people that i work with have a similar story. most of their families werent well off. my father was a 40 to 50K teacher and raised 4 kids. doesnt exactly sound like i had some special advantage does it? what about sports athletes. 99% (if not 100%) come from families below the poverty level. now they earn well into the top tier. lets take what they have right? how dare them have all that talent and actually work hard to become successful. how dare them make a lot of money while there are alot of drug dealers on the corner who never attempted to even finish high school having 6 kids whom we need to hand out money to. or the welfare lady who never works a day in her life just keeps having more kids so she can keep her welfare. (im not against welfare. i think it is a temporary solution but it shouldnt be used as a crutch to not work). the way you think and the way people like you think is a joke. let's just bring communism into america. you'd like that wouldnt you?

[Chauncey11]

Originally Posted by MindFreak

that's such a lame liberal talking point. i earn in the top tier and i didnt have any special privledges. i had no advantage that everyone didnt have. i joined the military at 18, got out went to college and got a series of jobs until i landed where i am now. anyone reading this could have done the same thing. most people that i work with have a similar story. most of their families werent well off. my father was a 40 to 50K teacher and raised 4 kids. doesnt exactly sound like i had some special advantage does it? what about sports athletes. 99% (if not 100%) come from families below the poverty level. now they earn well into the top tier. lets take what they have right? how dare them have all that talent and actually work hard to become successful. how dare them make a lot of money while there are alot of drug dealers on the corner who never attempted to even finish high school having 6 kids whom we need to hand out money to. or the welfare lady who never works a day in her life just keeps having more kids so she can keep her welfare. (im not against welfare. i think it is a temporary solution but it shouldnt be used as a crutch to not work). the way you think and the way people like you think is a joke. let's just bring communism into america. you'd like that wouldnt you?

Saying that working hard is the path to a bigger paycheck is complete crap. There are people that work way harder than me and make way way less. It seems like in this country the harder you work the less you make. You work any harder than Home Health aides, Coal Miners or our troops??? And I'm sure most of us make far more than they do.
The main difference is that some of would like to live in a society where we value how well our country is doing not by how the best are but how the worst are treated. And you bring up Sports athletes. For the most part, many sports Athletes are born with there talents. For the next 10 years i could spend 18 hours a day, reading about baseball, practicing baseball, living and breathing baseball, Do you think I'm gonna be able to hit a baseball like Alex Rodriguez. Listen,I'm not taking anything away from them, they are amazing talents but it was'nt just hard work that got them were they are.
It is now harder than ever before to advance out of this"class system".
And enough with the welfare cases. Didn't Clinton fix that problem around 10 years ago. What we have to worry about is Corporate welfare, the blatant handouts of BILLIONS of dollars to Pharmaceutical, Oil, and Government contracts.
And, everything does'nt have to come down to communism. Stop being so scared of everything. We had higher taxes on the wealthy(in some cases OVER 50%) up until the 60's. Was that a communist regime?? Don't be ridiculous.
Also, You have a little thing for Hillary dont you?? You bring her up like that girl in elementary school who you had a crush on so you thought making fun of her and throwing sand in her face would get her attention.

[GetFit]

Originally Posted by MindFreak

i am not even going to comment on that complete nonsense

Pleeaaseee comment.

[musclesntx]

I kind of resent all of this nonsense about hammering the rich with taxes because I've been on both ends of the spectrum.

Just over 3 years ago, I was an E5 in the military. Even further ago than that I was the son of a coal miner in the hills of east Tennessee and Kentucky - so I know what being broke is as much as anyone does...

I've made plenty of sacrifices that most people can't fathom - 20 hour days working in the military while training in my spare time and going to school full time, leaving my 8 month old son while I spent a year in Baghdad with a constant barrage of RPGs and other forms of things that go boom just so I can come home and have the financial cushion to follow my dreams and put my knowledge to work for me. Now, at 31, I'm on the opposite end of where I grew up - the upper 1%. I am no longer the employee who sits around and b!tches about how unfair the tax system is, I'm the business owner that provides jobs which in itself deserves a tax break.

It's much more than simply "working hard". It's setting forth on a path and doing whatever it takes to get to where you need to be - I assure you, sitting around and whining about a change and fairness isn't the way to go about it. IMO, getting rich in this country isn't difficult if you want it, and we still live in the country that provides you with the best opportunity to do so.

I'm not debating the separation of class scales, but somebody's going to be rich and somebody is always going to poor - I'm going to take the former over the latter. Go ahead and keep wasting your time complaining about it on bodybuilding message boards - it only leaves more money for me to make...

[GetFit]

Those of you that whine about unfairness of taxes are the same people that don't plan for taxes. Rich people are rich for a reason, they are smart and they plan. Until people start taking control of their life instead of looking for people to take care of them, they will always be poor and be hit hard by taxes.

[Renegade68]

Originally Posted by GetFit

Those of you that whine about unfairness of taxes are the same people that don't plan for taxes. Rich people are rich for a reason, they are smart and they plan. Until people start taking control of their life instead of looking for people to take care of them, they will always be poor and be hit hard by taxes.

You and Musclesntx hit it right on the head.

Time wasted worrying about what you don't have, or whining about what someone else has, is time you could have spent bettering yourself and your situation.

[musclesntx]

Originally Posted by GetFit

Those of you that whine about unfairness of taxes are the same people that don't plan for taxes. Rich people are rich for a reason, they are smart and they plan. Until people start taking control of their life instead of looking for people to take care of them, they will always be poor and be hit hard by taxes.

Exactly - you must take care of yourself, not sit around and whine about how the government doesn't take care of you...

[Chauncey11]

Originally Posted by GetFit

Those of you that whine about unfairness of taxes are the same people that don't plan for taxes. Rich people are rich for a reason, they are smart and they plan. Until people start taking control of their life instead of looking for people to take care of them, they will always be poor and be hit hard by taxes.

First off, i don't feel that I am hit hard by taxes. i have never complained about paying taxes in my life. i feel that is the price that you pay for living in the greatest country in the world. My problem comes when people making 100X to 1000X the amount that I do pay a smaller % than I do.
And I'm sick of hearing this stuff about how the rich are smart and they plan. I'm smart and I plan and I'm not rich!
Just a thought: The CEO of Wal-mart makes more before lunch on his first day of work than his average employee makes in the entire year.
It would take the average Household income 2500 years to make what the CEO of United Healthcare made in 1 year. And the sad part is they get taxed at a lower rate than most of me and you.What's more sad is that they have the audacity to complain about it.