So Much For 'Choosing' To Be Gay

[Trancelation]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7791888/

"Brain responses differ in gay, straight men

Study: Homosexuals react to male sex hormones like women

WASHINGTON - The brains of homosexual men respond more like those of women when reacting to a chemical derived from the male sex hormone, new evidence of physical differences related to sexual orientation.

The finding, published in Tuesday’s issue of Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, shows differences in physiological reaction to sex hormones.

Researchers led by Ivanka Savic at the Karolinska Institute in Stockholm, Sweden, exposed heterosexual men and women and homosexual men to chemicals derived from male and female sex hormones. These chemicals are thought to be pheromones, molecules known to trigger responses such as defense and sex in many animals.

Whether humans respond to pheromones has been the subject of debate, although in 2000 American researchers reported finding a gene that they believe directs the human pheromone receptor in the nose.

Biological basis to sexual orientation?
In the Swedish study, when sniffing a chemical from testosterone, the male hormone, portions of the brains involved in sexual activity were activated in gay men and straight women, but not in straight men, the researchers found.

When they sniffed smells like cedar or lavender, all of the subjects brains reacted only in the olfactory regions that handles smells.

The result clearly shows a biological involvement in sexual orientation, said Sandra Witelson, an expert on brain anatomy and sexual orientation at the Michael G. DeGroote School of Medicine at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada.

The research was funded by the Swedish Medical Research Council, the Karolinska Institute and the Megnus Bergvall Foundation."

Notice how none of these studies were conducted in America.

[Dave]

gays are gay because they choose to be.

[prodigalstranger]

They jsut need to go to church and pray out the gay. Damn sinners

[Dave]

i'm going to bench press your mother

[superman8791]

Originally Posted by Dave

gays are gay because they choose to be.

BUMP!!!

Filler...filler...filler

[Trancelation]

Wow. You guys sure posted a lot of scientific evidence reported in a study backed by a prestigious scientific organization. You even listed the names of scientists involved and the processes they used to discover what they did. I'm sure to agree with you now.

*turns sarcasm mode off*

It's only a matter of time until the mythology that gay people are gay because they choose to be is blown out of the water. There's already been one study where they found that the hypothalemus in gay men differed in size from that in straight men. Next you're going to say that someone can willingly change the size of their hypothalemus. Pssh.

But whatever. You people are the first ones to deny scientific evidence unless it backs up your personal beliefs. Denial is not just a river in Egypt.

[kakarott]

Well IMHO, I find it hard to believe that people are born gay. I think for most people that are gay something traumatic occurrec in their lives that triggered or forced them in that direction. However, I have nothing against people that are gay.

[Loki]

Originally Posted by Trancelation

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7791888/

"Brain responses differ in gay, straight men
Biological basis to sexual orientation?
In the Swedish study, when sniffing a chemical from testosterone, the male hormone, portions of the brains involved in sexual activity were activated in gay men and straight women, but not in straight men, the researchers found.

When they sniffed smells like cedar or lavender, all of the subjects brains reacted only in the olfactory regions that handles smells.

The result clearly shows a biological involvement in sexual orientation, said Sandra Witelson, an expert on brain anatomy and sexual orientation at the Michael G. DeGroote School of Medicine at McMaster University in Ontario, Canada.

I don't doubt the survey, but I wonder if it might be more of "conditioned" response than true proof that being gay is biological. For example, if my wife wore a certain perfume everytime we did it, I might begin to associate that smell with sexual activity. In this case, male hormone showed activity in straight women and gay men. I would expect that both groups would associate that smell with sexual activity since both would experience it every time they had sex.

I don't think everyone "chooses" to be gay, and to be honest, I really don't care. I'm glad none of these studies were performed in America. That would just mean more of my tax dollars being pissed away on something worthless. I think we do enough of that already.

[Poobah]

In all honestly I think It can happen both ways... You can be born that way, as the article and Mr. T suggests..

Also though, I think it's quite common to be molded into that behavior, by life experience.

For instance... Take a girl... have every man she's ever been with treat her like total trash.. Mean while her only good life time memory is with a certian female teacher that listened to her, and somehow made everything seem alright. One day, she meets a gal (who happens to be gay) that reminds her of that teacher way back when. They get involved.. the gal is sweet, and treats her good... she has the best time of her life, and falls in love.

Stupid example.. but I think of a million of them.. for either sex.... her's one for a male..

Boy from troubled family, gets sexually assualted by man... secretly for years it has filled him guilt, cause at some level it felt good to have an erection (the man sucked him off for instance..). He has trouble dealing with his own guilt, and begins to have problems with his sexual identity knowing that he once had enjoyed getting sucked off by another man. One drunken night, the now older boy wakes up in bed with another older boy.. He's now labeled as gay by peers..and he himself finds solice in the fact that at least he does not have to deal with the question anymore.. He's now free to go through life knowing he is indeed gay.. even though he may or may not be by birth.

life is more complicated then these examples.. but many variations of this stuff plays itself out everyday. gay or straight or Bi? how do you explain Bi? Personally I think Bi, might make the most sense cause you love someone for the person they are beyond the question of sexual identity. That said, I like woman. :P

Peace.

[Poobah]

Originally Posted by Loki

I don't doubt the survey, but I wonder if it might be more of "conditioned" response than true proof that being gay is biological. For example, if my wife wore a certain perfume everytime we did it, I might begin to associate that smell with sexual activity. In this case, male hormone showed activity in straight women and gay men. I would expect that both groups would associate that smell with sexual activity since both would experience it every time they had sex.

I don't think everyone "chooses" to be gay, and to be honest, I really don't care. I'm glad none of these studies were performed in America. That would just mean more of my tax dollars being pissed away on something worthless. I think we do enough of that already.

Bump.. on that. Patterns of thoughts and emotions that develope in either a straight or gay man or woman, could indeed eventually effect the pattern of chemical response one see's in thier brain. It is little proof that one person was born much different then another... that said, I still think certain people of brains that may well push ones train of thought one way or the other... or indeed be born that way.

However if it were true, that the actual hypothalemus were bigger in one group then another It would make me wonder.. But I'd be concerned as to whether or not the finding were acurate.

[Poobah]

OH.... and as far as anyone choosing to do anything... I'm not even sure it's possible... it only our perception that we choose.... and even perception gives the impression of choice.

Did the Sun choose to form here? Do the clouds decide to rain? Does a child choose to be born in famine? Do any of us truly make a choice? I sincerely doubt it... but it's good that we think we do, I suppose.

[skibumm233]

Weather or not I choose to be straight, or I choose to be gay has no real relevance. A person should “choose” to live their lives the way they see fit, the way that makes them happy, and stop worrying about what others think.

Of course life experiences play a role in who a person is and the way they live their lives. That being said, most gay men were not products of sexual abuse and most will tell you that they knew they were gay from a very early age, pre puberty, not a lot of room for life experience there. Its kinda funny how a set of identical twins can grow up with the same life experiences for the most part and one will be gay and one will be straight. Or there can be 4 kids in the same family and all 4 turn out gay.

I could really care less about these types of studies. In my opinion they don’t prove anything and they are not going to change peoples minds on the choice issue. Like someone said earlier, this money should be spent on research that really matters.

After all that, why does this topic even matter? Who cares if I am born gay or born straight, or if I choose to be gay or choose to be straight?

[Trancelation]

On Associating Scents:

That's an interesting thought. My only qualm with this is that it's biological, hence not man-made, and while there's plenty to back up the idea that we can develop physiological ties to certain scents (ie perfume, cologne, etc.), there's nothing to say that biological scents (hormones) can be associated the same way, that is to say, that we develop a link with them from scratch, or that one can force a link between the two from scratch. If a biological hormone is not designed to make a person react a certain way, I'm not entirely sure it'seven feasible that one can MAKE themselves react to said biological hormones.

That wold be like a dog reacting to the sexual hormones of a beetle.

On Choosing:

It's interesting that people say we choose our sexuality, yet not one of these people can provide a verifiable story of a homosexual male or female going straight and staying that way. I've heard groups that (through intense stress-inducing 'therapy') have been able to make a homosexual person swear chastity, but never switch over to the opposite sexual orientation and stay that way. I've read dozens of accounts of homosexuals entering heterosexual relationships, only to leave those relationships after much physical, mental and spiritual hardship later. These same people have often had churches, psychiatrists, and even drugs to help them 'choose' to be straiht, and yet they all failed.

On Why We Should Care:

Some people think that homosexuality is not only a choice, but a bad one. As such, some of these people are moving to have the civil rights of homosexuals restricted, if not outright destroyed. The burden of proof is on them to prove that homosexuality is a choice, and these people have failed miserably to do so. Despite that fact, some of these people continue to insist that homosexuals are less than human. This agenda seems to be at the top of some people's sh!t lists, and that's ridiculous. We should care because it is a part of the picture of humanity. To treat humans as less than human because of unproven claims is, to say the least, unfair. I'm not accusing everyone of treating gays like Jews in conentraion camps; but I am trying to open discussion to the Truth.

[meera]

Originally Posted by Trancelation

..when sniffing a chemical from testosterone, the male hormone, portions of the brains involved in sexual activity were activated in gay men and straight women....

Where do they sell that stuff?

[meera]

I have to say that personally, I find "smells" are extrememly important to sexual arousal.

[skibumm233]

Originally Posted by Trancelation

On Why We Should Care:

Some people think that homosexuality is not only a choice, but a bad one. As such, some of these people are moving to have the civil rights of homosexuals restricted, if not outright destroyed. The burden of proof is on them to prove that homosexuality is a choice, and these people have failed miserably to do so. Despite that fact, some of these people continue to insist that homosexuals are less than human. This agenda seems to be at the top of some people's sh!t lists, and that's ridiculous. We should care because it is a part of the picture of humanity. To treat humans as less than human because of unproven claims is, to say the least, unfair. I'm not accusing everyone of treating gays like Jews in conentraion camps; but I am trying to open discussion to the Truth.

Well forcing the issue down peoples throats is not the way to be treated as equals. IMO all this gay marriage crap has done nothing but make the issue worse. By forcing people this issue on people just makes them hate gays even more.

Personnally i have never felt any discrimination because of who I am. Mainly because i dont go screaming it from the rooftop. I dont introduce my self to people followed by "oh yeah and I am gay" What i do with another person sexually, weather they are male or female is my business and no one elses. If i get to know a person and they ask me, then i dont mind telling them.

It does not matter to me if people think i choose to be who i am, or if i was born this way. The fact is I live my life for me, and i live it the way that makes me happy. If they dont choose to be part of my life because of it, then thats fine with me.

[Hannainnc]

People choose to be gay or others make that choice for them. Nearly every truly gay person I know grew up without a father and/or were sexually abused as a child. They might not realize they're looking for love in another man is somehow subconsciously looking for acceptance from their father that they never received, but in many cases it is.

I know that hardly anyone is going to agree with me...lol....but thats alrighty.

[Mighty Mouse]

...so we had that long drawn out post to tell us that gay dudes have a different brain pattern and thought pattern than straight dudes. Um, the simple fact that they take it up the ass tells me that, I don't need a brain analysis done to prove it.


Once again, simple common sense takes over.

[Mighty Mouse]

Originally Posted by Hannainnc

People choose to be gay or others make that choice for them. Nearly every truly gay person I know grew up without a father and/or were sexually abused as a child. They might not realize their looking for love in another man is somehow subconsciously looking for acceptance from their father that they never received, but in many cases it is.

I know that hardly anyone is going to agree with me...lol....but thats alrighty.

To a degree you are right. That is why FBI profilers attack their cases in certain directions. Based on facts that time has proven again. Not all gays have that background, but the troubled ones usually do which is why they make prime suspects for such cases.

[Trancelation]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mouse

...so we had that long drawn out post to tell us that gay dudes have a different brain pattern and thought pattern than straight dudes. Um, the simple fact that they take it up the ass tells me that, I don't need a brain analysis done to prove it.


Once again, simple common sense takes over.

So long as we agree that there is an inherent biological factor that demonstrates that homosexuality is not, in fact, a choice.

By the way, if no-one likes this thread, no-one has to read it and no-one has to respond.