So Much For 'Choosing' To Be Gay

[Jetty3]

Originally Posted by Trancelation

"Are there documented cases of identical twins in which one is gay and the other isn't? That would seem to indicate that it is definitely not genetic or inborn, that it must be a choice."

There ae no documented cases of this.

From:http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead2.html



Twin studies in their modern form investigate both identical and fraternal twins, but this article emphasizes studies of identical twins, which are sufficient for our purposes. Studies of non-identical twins are detailed elsewhere (1).

Earlier studies mostly used informal or "snowball" samples of twins recruited from gay and lesbian associations, and by advertisements (e.g. 2,3). Such studies are possibly biased by the nature of twins who volunteer, but even so, if one identical twin was homosexual, only about half the time was the co-twin concordant (i.e. also homosexual).

Better research, however, was based on twins who were recruited for other reasons, and only subsequently asked about their sexual orientation. These are known as "registry" studies, and they similarly gave a concordance rate between identical twins of less than 50%. There have been two major published registry studies (4,5), one based on the Minnesota Registry, the other on the Australian Registry. The larger of the two registry studies is the Australian one, done by Bailey, Martin and others at the University of Queensland. Using the 14,000+ Australian twin collection, they found that if one twin was homosexual, 38% of the time his identical brother was too. For lesbianism the concordance was 30%. Whether 30% or 50% concordance (snowball samples), all the studies agree it is clearly not 100%. The critical factor is that if one identical twin is homosexual, only sometimes is the co-twin homosexual. There is no argument about this in the scientific community.

Interpretation

Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality. This conclusion has been well known in the scientific community for a few decades (e.g. 6) but has not reached the general public. Indeed, the public increasingly believes the opposite.

Identical twins had essentially the same upbringing. Suppose homosexuality resulted from some interaction with parents that infallibly made children homosexual. Then if one twin was homosexual, the other would also always be homosexual. But as we saw above, if one is homosexual, the other is usually not. Family factors may be an influence, but on average do not compel people to be homosexual.

Twin studies suggest that as a class, events unique to each twin--neither genetic nor family influences--are more frequent than genetic influences or family influences. But many individual family factors (such as the distant father) are commoner than the individual unique factors. Unique events would include seduction, sexual abuse, chance sexual encounters, or particular reactions to sensitive events, when young. Everyone has their own unique path which only partly follows that of the theoreticians! A fascinating sidelight on all this comes from the work of Bailey (7). His team asked non-concordant identical twins (one was homosexual, one not) about their early family environment, and found that the same family environment was experienced or perceived by the twins in quite different ways. These differences led later to homosexuality in one twin, but not in the other.

[Poobah]

Good post... and it does show that there is an unusually high occurance of Gay identical twins... SO there is indeed some genetic proof in the pudding.

Because if genetics did not play a role in it soley... the % likely hood that the other would also be gay would be much closer to the national average, (I'm not sure what it is right now... 5% or so?) and not at the 30-38%.

So that pretty much makes sence to me, you can be born with the basic frame work that may indeed more easily allow one to be gay or lesbian, but more then likely, its one's life experience that leads one to "choose" one life style over the other.

Granted, people are individuals.. even Identical twins, and even if both were gay, one may never choose to admit it.. but that is purely speculation. Besides that can be said for both sides of the fence... so the percentages should reflect a fairly accurate number.

Perhaps the easiest way to some up what I'm trying to say is... Some people are born with a higher predisposition to being gay or lesbian. whether they do actually become gay or not, is most likely to due with life experience... At least's that's my thoughts on the subject.

[Mighty Mouse]

Well, since you started your reply with insults to what you call bad english, which really relates to short time and fast typing, rather than to debate or even discuss rationally, I guess I will do the same.

You are an idiot. You obviously did not get at all what I was saying. Quit trying to make yourself look superior and just fade away. Moron.

Originally Posted by Trancelation

I think I'm going to need a team of linquistic analysists to break that bad English open. I'll do my best with what I've got, though.

So what you're saying is . . . if I was talking about homosexuals who have deep, emotional feelings for other homosexuals, love, in fact, but did not carry through with those feelings, that you would believe the study?

That is the stupidest G0d-damned thing I have ever heard.

So feelings homosexual feelings is natural . . . but doing homosexual things in conjunction with homosexual feelings is not?

No, I think that's the stupidest G0d-damned thing I've ever heard.

So, MM, if sexual orientation is a choice, why don' you go out and find yourself the biggest bear you can and get dirty with him? You can't. You can't MAKE yourself enjoy that. You can't CHOOSE to enjoy that. Either you enjoy it or you don't. If enjoying it is not part of your psychological or biological makeup, you can't. The only scientific way to be sure is to study a person from the time they're born to the time they die. No study has been conducted like that yet, so we have o go off what we have. Anyway, I'm taking this Brain Sex ID thing that Lean posted, it's pretty cool, now I have to measure the length of my fingers.

[Ejcm]

Originally Posted by Poobah

Good post... and it does show that there is an unusually high occurance of Gay identical twins... SO there is indeed some genetic proof in the pudding.

.

Actually, it does not prove that at all. It could simply mean that the twins are brought up in the same environment, and have the same emotional experiences that bring on homosexual tendencies.

[Poobah]

Originally Posted by Ejcm

Actually, it does not prove that at all. It could simply mean that the twins are brought up in the same environment, and have the same emotional experiences that bring on homosexual tendencies.

Oh definately true to some extent.. but I still think the percentages are a bit to high for that to be the sole major factor.. but you are correct that it would definately play a part. I just don't think it's the whole story. I still think predisposition has an impact, whether it's minor or major.. I couldn't say for sure.

I still say it's both.

[Trancelation]

Originally Posted by Lean_Machine

I have an idea, we'll conduct our own study. Trancelation you can be the lab rat, go put some cock up ur ass, in ur mouth and anywhere else it feels good for you then come back and tell us if your gay or not.

* farts in ur mouth*

I'm not even comfortable with another erection in the room.

[xenog]

I had a friend who when I met him had a gf and acted straight. Later on he finaly came out of the closet and let me know he was gay. He also said that when he was younger his cousin would molest him and crap like that. I think its more of an environment thing. Sexual abuse can really screw with a kids mind.
But then again I think some guys just love the cock

[Trancelation]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mouse

Well, since you started your reply with insults to what you call bad english, which really relates to short time and fast typing, rather than to debate or even discuss rationally, I guess I will do the same.

You are an idiot. You obviously did not get at all what I was saying. Quit trying to make yourself look superior and just fade away. Moron.

Dude, did you read what you typed? I doubt I'm the only person who couldn't understand it.

And nope, no fading. Sorry.

[Trancelation]

Originally Posted by Jetty3

From:http://www.narth.com/docs/whitehead2.html



Twin studies in their modern form investigate both identical and fraternal twins, but this article emphasizes studies of identical twins, which are sufficient for our purposes. Studies of non-identical twins are detailed elsewhere (1).

Earlier studies mostly used informal or "snowball" samples of twins recruited from gay and lesbian associations, and by advertisements (e.g. 2,3). Such studies are possibly biased by the nature of twins who volunteer, but even so, if one identical twin was homosexual, only about half the time was the co-twin concordant (i.e. also homosexual).

Better research, however, was based on twins who were recruited for other reasons, and only subsequently asked about their sexual orientation. These are known as "registry" studies, and they similarly gave a concordance rate between identical twins of less than 50%. There have been two major published registry studies (4,5), one based on the Minnesota Registry, the other on the Australian Registry. The larger of the two registry studies is the Australian one, done by Bailey, Martin and others at the University of Queensland. Using the 14,000+ Australian twin collection, they found that if one twin was homosexual, 38% of the time his identical brother was too. For lesbianism the concordance was 30%. Whether 30% or 50% concordance (snowball samples), all the studies agree it is clearly not 100%. The critical factor is that if one identical twin is homosexual, only sometimes is the co-twin homosexual. There is no argument about this in the scientific community.

Interpretation

Identical twins have identical genes. If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual. Genes are responsible for an indirect influence, but on average, they do not force people into homosexuality. This conclusion has been well known in the scientific community for a few decades (e.g. 6) but has not reached the general public. Indeed, the public increasingly believes the opposite.

Identical twins had essentially the same upbringing. Suppose homosexuality resulted from some interaction with parents that infallibly made children homosexual. Then if one twin was homosexual, the other would also always be homosexual. But as we saw above, if one is homosexual, the other is usually not. Family factors may be an influence, but on average do not compel people to be homosexual.

Twin studies suggest that as a class, events unique to each twin--neither genetic nor family influences--are more frequent than genetic influences or family influences. But many individual family factors (such as the distant father) are commoner than the individual unique factors. Unique events would include seduction, sexual abuse, chance sexual encounters, or particular reactions to sensitive events, when young. Everyone has their own unique path which only partly follows that of the theoreticians! A fascinating sidelight on all this comes from the work of Bailey (7). His team asked non-concordant identical twins (one was homosexual, one not) about their early family environment, and found that the same family environment was experienced or perceived by the twins in quite different ways. These differences led later to homosexuality in one twin, but not in the other.

Well, hot-damn, Lean, way to show my ass up.

*shakes your hand*

The interesting thing here is, there is still a genetic issue; it's possible that sexuality happens through 'activators,' not so much directly environmental experiences, but environmental experiences that trigger a certain sexuality - with the genes still being there, waiting to be activated. If that were the case, sexual orientation would still have genetic factors.

Now the Rich-Wingers just need to figure out that their oppressive lifestyles are 1,000 times more likely to make someone gay than the 'sinful' lifestyles they condemn.

[Hannainnc]

Originally Posted by Trancelation

Now the Rich-Wingers just need to figure out that their oppressive lifestyles are 1,000 times more likely to make someone gay than the 'sinful' lifestyles they condemn.

Sometimes you seem so bitter. Do you feel you are being oppressed by "the man" or something?

[Poobah]

Originally Posted by Hannainnc

Sometimes you seem so bitter. Do you feel you are being oppressed by "the man" or something?

Muahahah AHAAHHAH AHAHAHAH!!!!!



I'm sure he does have a few issues... but don't most of us?

[Trancelation]

Originally Posted by Hannainnc

Sometimes you seem so bitter. Do you feel you are being oppressed by "the man" or something?

"I've got some advice for you, little buddy.
Before you point your finger you should know that I'm the man.
If I'm the f@ckin' man then you're the f@ckin' man as well,
So you can point that ****in' finger up your ass!"

Love that song. Anyway, not really. Just pointing things out for what they are.

[Trancelation]

Originally Posted by NiteHawk

Homosexuality is purely a choice made by an individual. No one is born that way, That is a fact. Its a learned, chosen behavior.

You're welcome to your opinion, but that's never been proven. Much like the existence of Bigfoot, it is little more than a hinted-at myhtology.

[CollegeGuy]

Originally Posted by Trancelation

Now the Rich-Wingers just need to figure out that their oppressive lifestyles are 1,000 times more likely to make someone gay than the 'sinful' lifestyles they condemn.

Wtf does that mean??? being rich will make you gay more than... being gay?

btw, you are the most arrogant, opinionated bastard in here about this topic

[Mighty Mouse]

Trancelation is just desperately seeking a reason to justify the fact that he enjoys a nice large thick cock in his mouth. Why not blame it on brain function?

[Trancelation]

"Trancelation is just desperately seeking a reason to justify the fact that he enjoys a nice large thick cock in his mouth. Why not blame it on brain function?"

I'm not the one whose avatar has my hand even with my mouth and about 12 inches away from it, dude.

"Wtf does that mean??? being rich will make you gay more than... being gay?

btw, you are the most arrogant, opinionated bastard in here about this topic"

Sorry you feel that way. I've dedicated a lot of time and a lot of effort to the gay rights cause, among other things, but it's not so hard to convince people that starving children need to be fed (strangely enough, it IS hard to convince people to end poverty, because people have their heads so far up their asses in believing that poor people are poor because they want to be). so if I come across as arrogant or opinionated about the topic, forgive me. I am opionated (like anyone else), but it's hardly fair to call me arrogant because I have an opinion that I won't budge from. I can say the same thing about you.

As for what I was speaking about with the 'Rich-Winger' comment, no, being rich does not make you more gay than being gay. That was never the point. The point was (and is), that some of the most outspoken opponents of homosexuality are indeed closet homosexuals.

Mayor of Spokane, former republican state senate leader and outspoken opponent of gay rights James West, has admitted to visiting gay chat rooms and having relations with adult men. He has also been accused of abusing two boys while he was a sherriff's deputy and Boy Scout leader in the late 70's and early 80's, and for offering jobs to unqualified young men he met on gay websites on the internet.

I wonder how much being gay and being told continually how wrong and bad and sinful and gee whiz even intrinsically EVIL you are has to do with some of this kind of behavior.

It is very rare too that you hear of this kind of abuse by women, gay or straight. No doubt it happens, but much less often it seems.

It must be hard to live with the shame and self-loathing that must propel this kind of hypocrisy.

*shrugs* Just my thoughts, mon ami. Doesn't make me arrogant.

[Mighty Mouse]

Originally Posted by Trancelation

I'm not the one whose avatar has my hand even with my mouth and about 12 inches away from it, dude.

LOL. Thats funny, I actually chuckled. Obviously untrue, but a nice reply nonetheless. I have never looked at my avatar that way, you ruined it for me. Grrrr.

[Deific]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mouse

Trancelation is just desperately seeking a reason to justify the fact that he enjoys a nice large thick cock in his mouth. Why not blame it on brain function?

Bump, oh, no not bump, Trancelation don't get any ideas.

[Trancelation]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mouse

LOL. Thats funny, I actually chuckled. Obviously untrue, but a nice reply nonetheless. I have never looked at my avatar that way, you ruined it for me. Grrrr.

Some people play tennis. I erode the human soul.

[NiteHawk]

Being born gay has never been proven either and thats because you arent born that way.

Oh, and I dont believe in BigFoot either, you are right, pure myth.