Gay Marriage

[KrossInc]

Originally Posted by Topher

You ask us if we have done our research but have you done yours, i had a chat with my euro hist professor (college) and Homosexuality was not a giant factor you claim it to be. The major factors of the fall of the roman emipire was lacking in military techonlogy, heavily relying on slaves and corruption in the upper parts of the roman government

Historically written it is said that the greatest cause for the Roman Empire's collapse was the decadence of the people. Their joy for blood, their immorality, the fall of marriages, the rise of homosexuality, etc.

[kosmo]

Originally Posted by KrossInc

Historically written it is said that the greatest cause for the Roman Empire's collapse was the decadence of the people. Their joy for blood, their immorality, the fall of marriages, the rise of homosexuality, etc.

Amen, I have read may books and watched programs on the fall of Empires and Kross has this one nailed.

[lukeventura]

Originally Posted by jfuller82

Gays shouldn't be allowed to marry in the sense of the term but they shouldn't be barred from civil unions. I can't see why these gays gotta be so damn picky over words. It seems like alot of people are willing to give em civil unions so they can get all the same tax benefits and such that normal people get when they get married but these gays keep trying to get that extra inch and I think if they dont pull back at some point there is gonna be a huge backlash against em. I don't blame people for it either since gays are the most annoying people i've ever seen in my entire life. I cant stand normal people that are annoying so I dont understand why the gays think I'll put up with their crap either. Its like they all were born with half a brain or somethin.

Even if marriage is a term (for many it is more than a term), many gay people feel that not being allowed to do it makes them feel like second class citizens because they can't do everything other citizens can do.

[lukeventura]

Originally Posted by KrossInc

Because statistically gay male couples do not stay together, they are extremely promiscious.

So do you think it is okay for children to be raised by a single mother or father? That's what happens in the straight world. The only cure to the problem you present is to make divorce illegal.

[Ejcm]

Originally Posted by lukeventura

So do you think it is okay for children to be raised by a single mother or father? That's what happens in the straight world. The only cure to the problem you present is to make divorce illegal.

I think people should have to go through marriage counseling together before they get married. They might find out some things they are glad they found out before they got married

[Topher]

Originally Posted by lukeventura

So do you think it is okay for children to be raised by a single mother or father? That's what happens in the straight world. The only cure to the problem you present is to make divorce illegal.

That would be a horrible i idea, to have children live in a house with no love between parents and only hate. That also leads to the parents having sex with more people and their spose coudn't do anything about it and be stuck with that person with the rest of their life.

[lukeventura]

Well, in the Judeo-Christian sense, there should be no divorce. Whenever there is a disagreement, the man is always right. Eve was the irresponsible one and Adam had to take control of her. Why don't the religious anti-homos today fight divorce instead of gay marriage? And put an end to womens rights while you're at it

[Ejcm]

Women have rights??

[jfuller82]

Originally Posted by lukeventura

Well, in the Judeo-Christian sense, there should be no divorce. Whenever there is a disagreement, the man is always right. Eve was the irresponsible one and Adam had to take control of her. Why don't the religious anti-homos today fight divorce instead of gay marriage? And put an end to womens rights while you're at it

You haven't read the Bible it sounds like. Divorce is allowed when one of the partners has been unfaithful to the other. Outside of that, it is not allowed.

[Mighty Mouse]

I read the first page and skimmed the last, guilty skimmer here, but you guys and gals took off on this one...

but here is my take on it.

God made adam and eve, not adam and steve.

Gays should not marry. The idea is sick. I understand the 'fight for what you believe' scene, so fine, fight all ya want, but it should never pass.

look at things this way...talking gay men here. there are some claiming that it is OK in God's eyes. Bull****. Sodomy is against God's rules. When Homo's have sex they are performing acts of sodomy...thus breaking God's rules.

It is clearly stated in the Bible that marraige is for Man and Woman.

now for those who are atheist (sp)
do what you you want, 'cause you're going to hell anyway. lol.

[lukeventura]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mouse

I read the first page and skimmed the last, guilty skimmer here, but you guys and gals took off on this one...

but here is my take on it.

God made adam and eve, not adam and steve.

Gays should not marry. The idea is sick. I understand the 'fight for what you believe' scene, so fine, fight all ya want, but it should never pass.

look at things this way...talking gay men here. there are some claiming that it is OK in God's eyes. Bull****. Sodomy is against God's rules. When Homo's have sex they are performing acts of sodomy...thus breaking God's rules.

It is clearly stated in the Bible that marraige is for Man and Woman.

now for those who are atheist (sp)
do what you you want, 'cause you're going to hell anyway. lol.

Do you live in a country which is tied to a certain church or one which has church and state seperate and permits freedom of religion?

[KrossInc]

Also clearly states "Thou shalt not lie with a man like thy would lie with a woman. Thou shalt not lie with a woman like thy would lie with a man."

[lukeventura]

Originally Posted by KrossInc

Also clearly states "Thou shalt not lie with a man like thy would lie with a woman. Thou shalt not lie with a woman like thy would lie with a man."

It certainly does, along with a million other things which are not represented in law. The bible does not permit interracial relationships, or female equality either, should we go back on these laws too?

[WILK99]

i never said i agree with homosexuality in itself but... we have no right to deny gays from getting married. church and state should be seperate. if you don't you can end up taking it to extreams and rules start being made. could you imagine not being able to watch tv because someone starts thinking that its not right in gods eyes? sounds crazy but it happens. alot of countries ban international media.... kinda sounds like north korea..

[jfuller82]

Originally Posted by lukeventura

It certainly does, along with a million other things which are not represented in law. The bible does not permit interracial relationships, or female equality either, should we go back on these laws too?

Where in the Bible does it say interracial relationships are forbidden? The Bible also doesn't say anything against female equality either. You sure you're reading the Bible?

[lukeventura]

Originally Posted by jfuller82

Where in the Bible does it say interracial relationships are forbidden? The Bible also doesn't say anything against female equality either. You sure you're reading the Bible?

I'm going for lunch now, but I will post the exact quotes when I get back.

[kosmo]

Originally Posted by lukeventura

I'm going for lunch now, but I will post the exact quotes when I get back.

Let's begin with Exodus 34:10-16:

"And he said, Behold, I make a covenant: before all thy people I will do marvels ... behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite. Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God; Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods."
Here we see God forbidding the Israelites from marrying people of the nations around them. The question we need to examine closely is why? Was the prohibition based on race (especially as used in the sense of skin color) or on religion?

From these verses we can clearly see that God's concern was that marrying outside the "church" (Israel was the Church of the Old Testament) would cause Israel to turn away from God. The command is similar to what we read in the New Testament in 2 Corinthians 6:14,

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers ...",
and 1 Corinthians 7:39,

"The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord."
God gave the saints liberty to marry anyone in the Lord regardless of race or skin color. The issue was the same for the Church in the wilderness.

Notice similar instructions in Deuteronomy 7:1-6.

"Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly" (v. 3-4).
The problem here was clearly that marrying outside the "Church" would cause Israel to turn away from the true worship of the true God. Other scriptures that illustrate this truth are Joshua 23:6-13; Ezra 9:1-2, 10-14.

Now some would agree that the "main" issue had to do with religion, but would still hold on to the idea that race was also included. Let's now notice God's ruling on race, once religion is taken care of. Exodus 12:37-38 shows us that when Israel left Egypt, a mixed multitude went up with them. In Verse 43 God then explains that a stranger may not eat of the Passover. For a stranger to eat the Passover, he had to be circumcised (symbolic of spiritual conversion—see Romans 2:28-29). Once a stranger was circumcised, the scripture says:

"he shall be as one that is born in the land .... One law shall be to him that is home born and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you" (vv. 48-49).
If a stranger becomes "as one that is born in the land" then it would no longer be wrong for this stranger to marry an Israelite, or for an Israelite to marry him/her because they both at that point would be in the "Church." Thus we see that scripture forbids interreligious, not interracial marriage. The theory used by Mr. Armstrong's group was that Noah's three sons married women of three different races in order to perpetuate the races after the flood. Without taking time to debate this issue, which in itself proves unfounded, this church therefore seemed to suggest that one must not cross the three major strains in marriage. Yet, scripture simply does not support this view. Rather, God's Word tells us we are all of one blood (Acts 17:26); we are all the descendants of Adam and Eve (Gen. 3 :20); and we are all the descendants of Noah. We are in one sense, therefore, all of one race (family). If we trace our roots back, why stop at the sons of Noah for the purpose of marriage. What scripture indicates that we should stop there? The absence of a scriptural command on this delineation makes it clear such a policy is unscriptural.

Notice Israel was plagued for committing whoredom with Midianites—descendants of Abraham (Gen. 25:14). Solomon was rebuked for marrying, among others, Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites—all descendants of Shem (Genesis 19:36-38; Gen. 36). In both cases the problem was clearly that these strange wives led the Israelites away from the true worship of the true God. The problem was interreligious marriage, not interracial marriage.

Yet, on the other hand, Moses married a Midianite woman in Exodus 2:15-21 with no condemnation from God. The condemnation came from Miriam and Aaron and God was angry with them (Numbers 12:1-9). Nowhere in the Bible do we read of God correcting Moses for the wife he chose—even though she was black. Her skin color is proved by a comparative analysis of scripture which indicates that Jethro and Zipporah were black. Zipporah was identified as an Ethiopian woman in Numbers 12:1, Hebrew, "Cu****e." Habakkuk 3:7 shows Cushan was an archaic term for the Midianites (see New Bible Dictionary p. 257). Jethro was also considered a Kenite in Judges 1:16. Zipporah was accepted by God because her religion was not wrong. Her father, Jethro, worshipped the true God (Exodus 18:10-27).

We see later that Boaz was the son of Rahab, the harlot, a Canaanite woman from Jericho. Rahab was accepted by God and allowed to marry an Israelite because she became a member of the "church"—she accepted the religion of Israel (Hebrews 11 :31). Boaz married Ruth, a Moabite. This was allowed because she accepted the true God. All of these historical facts show that Jesus' ancestry included Gentiles (Matthew 1:5; Luke 4:32). One should also note that Solomon was the son of Bathsheba, "daughter of Sheba" (Genesis 10:7) a descendant of Cush (remember Solomon later met with the Queen of Sheba, 1 Kings 10:1). Bathsheba, Solomon's mother, was also the former wife of Uriah the Hittite. Yet David was never criticized for marrying outside of his race. His sin was the sin of adultery. The marriage was later blessed by God rather than condemned, and the offspring of the interracial marriage was chosen by God to be the King of Israel, the wisest king of all time.

[kosmo]

Obviously, what God's word prohibits is interreligious marriage, not interracial marriage. Some would say at this point, "what about the fact that Isaac and Jacob were instructed to marry their relatives (Gen. 24 3-4; 28: 1)?" Since the Israelites, as previously seen, were commanded not to marry relatives who were not "circumcised" or part of the Church, we realize the issue was not race but religion.

Some assume Abraham's motive for wanting Isaac to marry among his relatives was a desire to maintain racial purity. However, this cannot be proved in the scriptures. A more likely reason can be seen when we look at the example of Lot. Righteous Lot, Abraham's nephew, had children before Abraham did. Abraham learned from Lot's mistakes. When God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot's sons-in-law would not leave the city, even though they were given the opportunity to do so. The problem was that they did not know the true God. They were not in the "Church" and were most likely steeped in pagan religion.

Abraham must have contemplated the problem of finding a wife for his son that would not be too heavily influenced by pagan religion. Accordingly, he considered it wiser to choose a wife from his relatives where he knew the Pagan influence was not very strong. One certainly cannot deduce or prove that Abraham's motive was race or racial purity. Therefore, one should not use Abraham's decision in choosing a wife for his son as the basis for a church policy to forbid interracial marriage.

Another scripture misunderstood is found in Genesis 6:9 where it says,

"... Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations and Noah walked with God."
Some believe the phrase, "perfect in his generations," means Noah was racially pure. This view is found in the Companion Bible. This was also the view of Herbert W. Armstrong. In his book Mystery of the Ages, p. 148 we read,

"... Noah, only, was unblemished or perfect in his generations—his ancestry. He was of the original white strain."
However, a close look at the preceding verses show conclusively that this view could not be correct.

Methuselah lived 187 years before he begat Lamech, and after that he lived another 782 years for a total of 969 years. When Lamech was 182 he begat Noah. Based on the scriptures (Gen. 5:25- 32), at the time of Noah's birth, Methusaleh was 369 years old. Gen. 7:11 shows that Noah was 600 years old when he entered the Ark (600 + 369 - 969). Thus the flood came at the same time Methusaleh died. Yet, Noah was building the Ark and preaching righteousness for 120 years before the flood came, during which time God says Noah was the only one perfect in his generations. How could Noah be racially pure and his grandfather be racially impure? Noah's father was also alive during this time; he died 5 years before the flood. If racial purity was God's concern, Lamech should have been considered perfect in his generations too.

Obviously, being perfect in your generations has nothing to do with race. Being just and perfect according to the scriptures refers to the keeping of God's commandments (Matthew 5:48; Psalm 119:172). Nowhere in the Bible does God equate perfection with racial purity. If perfection had anything to do with racial purity, why didn't God keep Jesus' blood pure? As we have seen above, Jesus had gentile blood in his ancestry. Was Noah more pure than Jesus?

When we look at the usage of the word "perfect" in Genesis 6:9, Hebrew "tamiym," we find that the word refers to Noah's character, his relationship with God, and the way he lived his life—according to God's commandments. Some desire to translate the Hebrew word "tamiym" with the English word "unblemished." But in Ephesians 5:27 we find Christ is currently washing the Church with his Word,

"that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
To be without blemish refers to righteousness, not racial purity.

The word "generations" can mean "among his contemporaries. " As one who lived 600 years before the flood, Noah evidently lived through several generations. Noah was righteous all that time. Notice how this verse is translated in the New American Standard translation,

"These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God."
Salvation is always by grace, never by race.

After Noah's descendants began to repopulate the earth, God divided the nations (Gen. 10:32). Some have misused this verse to suggest that God divided the nations to keep the races separate. Why did God divide the nations?

The scriptural reason given is found in Genesis 11:1-8. Nimrod led an organized rebellion against God in the building of the tower of Babel. God scattered mankind abroad so that unified opposition to God, leading to worldwide destruction, would not occur until its appointed time (Acts 17:26-30).

Another scripture that is generally misused to support anti-miscegenation is Leviticus 19:19 which states:

"... You shall not let your livestock breed with another kind. you shall not sow your field with mixed seed. Nor shall a garment of mixed linen and wool come upon you. "
This scripture says absolutely nothing about interracial marriage. It speaks about breeding livestock and sowing your field. When we read the entirety of Leviticus 18 and 19, we find that God is very specific and straight to the point in all of his instructions. God takes the time to make his intention abundantly clear. We should not read our own interpretation into this verse. Nowhere in the scriptures are we told to apply this verse to marriage. In fact, if we apply this verse to marriage, we will actually break other scriptures including the verse above Leviticus 19:19—

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" (Leviticus 19:18).
Some have concluded by misapplying this verse that children of mixed parentage are inferior to those of "pure blood." This is a highly racist view.

As cited above, are we to deduce that Jesus was an inferior human since his blood was not pure? What about David? What about Solomon?

Yet, in the past our views reflected this type of racism. In answer to why God chose Israel, Mr. Armstrong speculated that it was due to the fact that they-

"God started his chosen nation off—even though brought out of slavery—with all the natural advantages of a superior heredity. God pulled them out of slavery and gave them a new and fresh start. One might say they had everything God-given going for them."
If Israel's heredity was superior—then everyone else—all other races—must be inferior. Doesn't this sound a bit racist? And yet, many scriptures clearly contradict this view.

Let's notice from the Bible why God chose Israel.

"And because he loved thy fathers, therefore he chose their seed after them, and brought thee out in his sight with his mighty power out of Egypt; To drive out nations from before thee greater and mightier than thou art, to bring thee in, to give thee their land for an inheritance, as it is this day" (Deuteronomy 4:37-38).
Notice the Bible says God chose Israel because of the faithfulness of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. The scripture also indicates that the other nations were in fact greater than Israel, not inferior.

Deuteronomy 7:1 shows that the nations God cast out before Israel were:

"seven nations greater and mightier"
than Israel. God goes on to say why he chose Israel, notice it:

"The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt" (w. 7-8).
Again in Deuteronomy 9:4-6, God emphatically states that it was not based on Israel's righteousness that he chose them.

"Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee. Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Understand therefore, that the LORD thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people."
It should be obvious from these verses that God did not choose Israel due to any superior heredity or righteousness on their part. He chose them according to the promise he made to Abraham, and God blessed Abraham because Abraham obeyed him, not because he was white (Gen. 26:5).

Flawed Policy Bears Evil Fruit

In Matthew 7:16-20 we are told to know a true minister by his fruits. We can also judge policies by their fruits. A good policy will not bear evil fruit. Let's notice that the policy forbidding interracial marriage in Mr. Armstrong's church group did bear evil fruit in the past.

First of all, the policy led to disastrous conclusions. I can remember a very unfortunate experience that I once had when I was being trained in the Ministry in 1987. The Assistant Pastor had me assist him in visiting a new contact and prospective member. The young lady was of mixed parentage. Her mother was white, and her father was black. She was very light in complexion, but her brother was very dark. Before inviting her to Church, the Assistant Pastor had to inform her that we did not allow interracial dating and marriage in the Church. We had no clear scriptures to support our point. However, the minister went on to explain that since she was not clearly in either racial group, she would have to decide before attending services which race (skin color) she would date. Her decision once approved would be final and lifelong. For approval she was required to write an essay explaining her decision which was to be sent to Pasadena along with a photograph, before a final decision could be made.

Why should ministers have the right to decide who she could date? On what grounds did the ministry exercise such authority over people's lives?

God's Word does not lead the ministry to control every aspect of people's lives. We should teach and preach the Word. When we go beyond the Bible we overstep the authority God has given us.