Nutrition Countdown - Pre/During/Post workout nutrition

[Y2Jversion1]

Source: FLEX Sept. 03 Issue
Article by: Jim Stoppani, PhD

Our knowledge of bodybuilding nutrition continues to expand at roughly the same fast pace as NASA's ever-growing understanding of the universe. Back in the dark ages, before the advent of professional bodybuilding, there was little science to support exercise performance. As time progressed, bodybuilders began to instinctively realize the importance of performance nutrition, and they began to consume more protein and complex carbs to support their training. It took science quite a while to catch up to bodybuilders - and even bodybuilders didn't have it completely right. Just a few years ago, many trainers thought it was best to work out on empty stomach and to worry about calories later. Now we know there's more to exercise nutrition than simply pounding down a postworkout shake - it's better to eat before, during and after your workout.
IF you want to rocket your muscle growth into the stratosphere, then implement our Nutrition Countdown program, which relies on current research to inform you about what and when to eat.

T-MINUS 3:00 AND COUNTING
The window of opportunity for workout nutrition begins to open about two to three hours before your workout. This means you must feed your body the amino acids and carbs it needs for fuel during your training session, and for recovery and rebuilding afterward. At this time, consume a whole-food meal that provides a 1:2 ratio of protein to carbs with about 40gms of protein and 80gms or carbs. This meal should furnish 600 calories or more, depending on your total caloric needs.
The best protein choices include: beef, chicken, fish and eggs. These foods will provide a slow release of amino acids to your muscles ensuring that these aminos will still be present during your workout. This will help prevent the breakdown of muscle protein for use asa fuel source while you train.
For carbs, go for the complex type by eating brown rice, yams or oatmeal. These also will be broken down slowly so you have a steady supply of blood glucose throughout your exercises. This keeps your energy up and also helps spare muscle protein from being burned when you work out.

T-MINUS 0:30 AND COUNTING
Fifteen to 30 minutes before you hit the gym, you should drink half of your workot meal. This is the time to give your body a fast supply of protein and carbs. The ratio of protein to carbs should be the same as the previous workout meal (about 1:2), and the total amount will be similar as well. What should be different is the source of each nutrient.
For protein, you want one that gets absorbed quickly. Go with 20-40g of whey protein (preferably an isolate and/or hydrolysate) to provide readily available amino acids to your muscles while you train. This will further protect the muscle from being broken down for fuel and will help kick-start the process of muscle synthesis when the workout is over. You also need a mix of 40-80gs of fast and somewhat slower digesting carbs to give you quick but sustainable energy. A maltodextrin complex would be the best choice, with up to half its carbs from glucose or dextrose. Maltodextrin is a modified complex carbohydrate that may also be listed on the label as oat complex, white rice fractions or brown rice fractions. as for dietary fat, avoid it altogether because it slows digestion.
Drink about half the mix at this point, and bring the rest to your gym. Pay attention to how your body responds to the amount of calories it's receiving. If you feel sluggish or bloated, reduce the amount you consume prior to your workout.

LIFTOFF
At this point, you're ready to start heavy lifting. As you train, slowly sip the rest of your workout drink as it is, or, if you prefer, add 12 to 16 ounces of water. This diluted version will continue to provide your body with a steady flow of aminos and glucose as well as provide you with more fluids. Regardless of which option you choose, continue to drink water too, to help replace all the fluids you're losing while bodybuilding.

T-PLUS 0:01 AND COUNTING
AFter your workout, go for about 40-50g of protein and approximately 40-100g of carbs. In terms of timing, the general rule is the sooner, the better - you want your meal to get to its muscle destination as quickly as possible. This means your protein choice should be whey (isolate and/or hydrolysate). For carbs, take in pure glucose or dextrose (without the maltodextrin). This combination will help spike your insulin, an important anabolic hormone that increases glucose and amino acid uptake to help repair and build muscle mass. If you're supplementing with creatine, one way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone is to mix whey with a high-glucose creatine product. This will also help drive the creatine into the muscle cells.
If you've already had before-and during-workout drinks, then you've set the wheels in motion to aid recovery. You can relax somewhat after you're done training and catch up with your gym mates or that hottie at the front desk. You'll be fine as long as you get home and have the proper drink within an hour.
However if drinking a shake before or during a workout upsets your stomach or you just dont like drinking a mix in the gym, then time is of the essence when your training ends. Bring your drink with you.

T-PLUS 1:00 AND COUNTING
Optimally, you should eat again an hour after your postworkout shake. Research shows that a second postworkout meal an hour after the first boosts of protein synthesis of the muscle tissue back up again into the muscle building realm. Here you can go a little lighter with the carbohydrate and hit a 1:1 ratio of protein to carbs. You don't need as many carbs at this point because your previous drink has helped satisfy that need.
Another option is to eat a whole food meal at this point. You'll probably be hungry for real food then, and it's an ideal time to have a full fledged bodybuilding meal. Have a large cut of lean meat, vegetables and a complex carb source such as brown rice or yams.

WORKOUT NUTRITION 24/7
With all of the parameters outlined in this feature, you can see that maximizing the building of quality muscle requires a methodical approach. You should also realize that bodybuilding nutrition is a 24 hour a day process. It's never over, as each meal or snack provides immediate and future benefits that overlap those meals that come before and after. You have to have a consistent plan to make sure you're taking full advantage of your muscle-building potential. So the next time you're patting yourself on the back because you never miss a workout, you should examine whether or not you follow your nutirion program as dutifully. As much as extra reps matter, nothing will help you maximize your gains better than paying attention to your workout nutrition.

-end article

*edited for advertisments :wink:

So, what do you guys think? I thought it was an excellent article!
(my fingers are tired now)


EDIT: Aikurushii - combined threads.

[titan]

Back2theGym & Y2J , its good to see we're all in the same boat,

I work from 9-5 5 days a week and attend University classes ( im getting my degree :-D ) 2 nights & one arvo a week, so its been extremely hectic to get gym planned and meals etc.

Anyways, ive given some thought to that research paper that Y2J posted.. heres pretty much what im planning to implement over the next week to fit in my daily schedule

4.30 pm ( T -3:00 ) - Milo & Milk , 1 can Tuna - 40 g carbs 30 g protein
6:30 pm ( T - 0:30 ) - Half Protein Shake + Water, some breads , maybe even some fruit juice for some more slow carbs ( 35 g carbs, 10 g protein )
7:15 pm ( Lift off ) - Drink the other half of the Protein + water during workout ( 10 g protein )
8:30 pm ( T 0:30 ) - Protein & water , Dextrose & Creatine probably even
a bannana ( 55 g protein, 30 g carbs + carbs in the banana )
9:30 pm ( T +1:00 ) - nightly meal , (about 100 g carbs and 30g protein. )

Ofcourse its not exactly in accordance with the post by Y2J, but its the best i can come up with given my situation! :lol: i might end up changing parts of it as time goes by to see what else might work, but for now, this is it.

Let us know what you think ! :-D

[musclesntx]

Hey guys, I thought I'd drop by and post this. I put it up on my board this morning, and since it seems to be one of the most popular nutrition topics, and one that I am most often asked about, I figured it wouldn't hurt to throw it up on here. I had actually typed up a much longer and more detailed article, but due to a power surge, I lost it (without saving). Nonetheless, this gets to the point.

This is not EVERYTHING you can use. However, if you don't want to spend any more cash on some of the things I've listed, don't panic. These are just my recommendations. More could be added (BCAAs BCAAs BCAAs), but this is pretty basic.

Also, remember that pre, during, and post workout nutrition are a small piece of the puzzle. Take every meal as serious as you take these!!! I don't recommend both during and after drinks for a workout. I personally don't like 2 consecutive drinks, but sometimes it is necessary. I would recommend the post drink if you didn't have an in-workout drink. If you do have the in-workout drink, you could make your post-workout meal mostly complex carbs and protein. If you'd still like a drink after your workout, it can be significantly reduced if you had the during workout drink.

Just make sure that you're fueling yourself for your workout, and then replenishing after - that is of the utmost importance.

IMPORTANT: I should've specified this a long time ago, but for some reason, I didn't: this is for a typical 200lb bb'er. Of course, size is relative.

Pre-Workout (for those who workout first thing in the morning) Objectives: Energy to get through the workout, replenish glycogen from the all night sleep.

Upon waking
- Amino Supplement
15-30 minutes prior
- 80-100g of simple carbs (glucose, dextrose, sucrose, maltodextrin), 0g of protein, 2-3g of creatine, 3g of glutamine.

Your body is very glycogen depleted at this point. Give your brain, liver, and muscles fuel! No protein-let the glycogen absorb.

Pre-Workout (for those who lift some other time than first thing in the AM) Objective: Get you through your workout!

2-3 Hours prior
- 70-100g of complex carbs, 20-25g of protein, low fat
Don't eat way too much protein here, you want the carbs to absorb and be ready for energy
- 15-30 minutes prior
- Amino Supplement
- Arginine
If you feel you need something extra, try the same drink that I recommend for the first thing in the morningers.


During Workout
Objective: I know I'm going to be attacked for this meal suppressing GH, but I'm not so sure that it does (it has NOT been proven). But it has been proven to suppress cortisol. Plus, it gives your muscles a constant flow of nutrients. Remember, sip this lightly, and make it last your entire workout. Keep drinking water as well. I used to be totally against this, but after trying it for a few weeks, I have to say that I believe the positives outweigh the negatives. Remember, you're not lifting weights to lose fat. Yes, it will ultimately result in that (more muscle burns more fat, etc) but the actual act of lifting weights is to increase muscle size, muscle strength, and/or muscle endurance.

Always drink plenty of water. Lately, I've had good results with this mix.
- 40-50g of simple sugars (glucose, sucrose, dextrose, or maltodextrin), 10-15g of whey, 3-5g of creatine

I know this isn't totally conventional, but I've been doing quite a bit of studying with this, and I've actually been using some people as guinea pigs (including myself), and I've been very pleased with the results.

Post Workout
Objective: Replenish glycogen, begin repair, reduce free-radical damage, increase protein absorption and synthesis by spiking insulin.

Immediately after:
- BCAA supplement (your body uses BCAAs for energy, so it's important to replenish these levels.

15-30 minutes after:
- 90-120g of simple carbohydrates (preferably sucrose, glycose, or dextrose) 25-30g of whey protein, 2-3g of creatine, 3g of glutamine, multivitamin, Flax Oil, Glucosamine with MSM

75-90 minutes after:
http://www.the-personal-trainer.com/...opic.php?t=273
(Some people's stomachs cannot handle this. If you can, you may want to do it. If not, just eat a whole meal 90-120 minutes after your last shake.)

Hope that you find this useful. If you have any questions about this or anything else, drop me a line.

Take care,

[Dave]

B speaks....someone sticky this

[abear]

thats a buttload of carbs. glad i learned i didnt need that much

[Vplayer]

Musclesntx (Boyd) is my guru yall. I can promise on my soul that Ive never, ever had such dramatic results as when I started listening to him. All my life I thought I was a hard gainer. Please PLEASE take advantage of what this man has to offer if you're stuck on a plateau or just want to see explosive results. People pay through the nose for advise of this quality and he's here for you for free. It cannot get any better than that.

[musclesntx]

Originally Posted by abear

thats a buttload of carbs. glad i learned i didnt need that much

Abear, I'm sorry (sincerely sorry) that you learned incorrectly...

V, thanks for the kind words.

[Vplayer]

Originally Posted by musclesntx

Abear, I'm sorry (sincerely sorry) that you learned incorrectly...

V, thanks for the kind words.

I'll give ya one better than that. When I saw your plan for me through our PMs, I kinda rebeled against so many carbs too. I also thought that I didnt need that many. I was literaly afraid of taking in so many. I thought you were like other trainers that say wrong stuff from time to time because most do.

I was dead wrong.


I know now that I need those carbs, and when I dont get them, I definately feel it. I say let people continue to do things their way. All I know is that you can back up everything you say and we members of your board that listen can back up everything you say. All anyone has to do is look at the pics. They speak VOLUMES.

[Skippy]

Boyd, this is awesome! I've been doing something right thus far with pre and some of the post workout nutrition, but you have a few more ideas for post and during workout that I never realized.

I want to extend a sincere thank you since I think this will help me reach more goals than I would have doing what I am doing right now. Glad to have you around!

Alex

[musclesntx]

Hey Skippy-Nice! Thanks for the compliments, and I hope you reach all of your goals as fast as possible!

[NJPitcher]

What are your reccomendations for food with carbs? Like could I use grape juice (3 cups or so) to get in my pre-workout carbs, or should I use something like oatmeal? Thanks, you seem to know your stuff, so I figure you're a good person to ask,

EDIT: Woops, didn't see the complex/simple in front of the different times. Sorry for the wasted post. anyways, I'll try this out tomorrow.

[abear]

no problem my friend.

i got on that bandwagon years ago. 75 grams of carbs after a workout. found that b/w 30-60 does fine. the rest was a waste

i'm gonna pm you another pre/post guide from someone who did a guide just like yours.

[musclesntx]

Originally Posted by NJPitcher

What are your reccomendations for food with carbs? Like could I use grape juice (3 cups or so) to get in my pre-workout carbs, or should I use something like oatmeal? Thanks, you seem to know your stuff, so I figure you're a good person to ask,

EDIT: Woops, didn't see the complex/simple in front of the different times. Sorry for the wasted post. anyways, I'll try this out tomorrow.

Hey NJ,
I generally do not recommend the simple sugar fructose at any of these 3 times. Look for drinks that have sucrose, dextrose, glucose, or maltodextrin as the primary sugar. But I only recommend the sugars immediately before your workout. The ideal pre-workout meal is full of complex carbs (yes, oatmeal is an excellent complex carb) and moderate protein 2-3 hours before.

abear,
Your body holds anywhere from 500-700g of glycogen in your muscles, brain, and liver. If you're working hard, you're pretty much going to need a lot more than 30-60 grams post workout. I know that everyone is different, but 30-60 is on the extreme low end for most people. Do you weigh under 115 or something? I'm not being an ass or anything, but again, that's insane low.

You're not one of those carb-o-phobes are you???

I took a look at the guide you sent me, and I have a few things I'd debate in that.

First, he suggests that ideal scenarios for a pre-wo meal both contain up to 60g of protein. I do agree that your body needs BCAAs---I supplement them myself. For those who may not know, Branched Chain Amino Acids (Valine, Leucine, Isoleucine) are the 3 aminos that may be used for energy. But back to my point-there are few, if any times your body can process 60g of protein, and even if it is a fast absorbinb protein (like whey), it still doesn't make any sense to slow your body down by packing that much in 15-30 minutes before you workout.

He also suggests low GI carbs 15-30 minutes prior to workout. It takes a little longer for those carbs to empty out of the stomach. When your stomach has food in it, more blood is sent to the stomach area. While you're working out, you do NOT want your stomach full of food-you want blood flowing to your muscles. (Kind of like mom telling you not to swim for 20 minutes after you eat). A high dose of high GI carbs will absorb quickly, and will give you the glycogen you need to support energy from the glycolysis.

As far as during the workout, I suggest water along with a sports drink MORE to aid hydration and to keep electrolyte levels high, but since you're drinking something, it wouldn't hurt to assist in repair and cortisol suppressing. I definitely don't recommend more than 15g of whey, and I personally keep it as low as 10 (just enough to keep my BCAAs)

I do believe that the post-workout is a very important meal, but I believe that the pre-workout rivals its importance as the MOST important. The reason I believe that it is crucial to give your body a high dose of high GI carbs is because exercise increases the insulin response of the body. High GI carbs will raise insulin. Now add the protein. Higher insulin will result in higher protein absorption and synthesis. So to say that this meal isn't very important isn't accurate. Is it the most important? I believe EVERY meal is important, and take every meal as serious as my post-workout meal.

Guys, one final re-emphasis-don't underestimate the micronutrients at this point. Get those vitamins and minerals into your body. All it takes is for your body to be deficient in ONE vitamin, ONE mineral, or ONE amino acid, and the system will not work to an optimum level. How do you know if you're deficient? Without constant blood work, it's hard to, so you have to keep the levels of these things up. I've written about this before, so if you're interested, hit me up.

[abear]

[/quote]You're not one of those carb-o-phobes are you???[/quote]

ewww! LOL!!!!

no way. you see, it was suggest to me that i do 75 grams of dextrose pwo a couple years ago. so i gave it a shot. it was like i was drowning in it. it was too much. they kept telling me to stick with it and i did. i kept with it for a couple of weeks.

then i dropped back down to where i was and got going again. this isnt the first time someone said that i was crazy. but you have to listen to what your body is telling you. i weigh 179 and i take 2 scoops of gatorade with one scoop of whey, 1 scoop of creatine in 15 ounces of water.

believe its does fine and i'm not the only one. i participate on a couple of boards and quite a few are getting off the high sugar pwo bandwagon. so i'm not the only one.

i'm not trying to say i'm right, you're wrong. far from that. but my opinion is that for some (like myself), thats too much.

[musclesntx]

You're definitely right that you have to listen to your body. I take my time with my drink-it usually takes me 15-25 minutes to finish it. If I down it fast, I feel like crap. It's also loaded with water, so it's as dilluted as possible.

Personally, I feel that my body recovers a lot faster by getting the extra sugar pwo. I know that a lot of people in the gyms and on the nets are seriously terrified of carbs, and even more afraid of simple carbs. There is definitely a "sugar" window, and I do everything I can to take advantage of the hormone manipulation (insulin). (I'm definitely not supporting downing unnecessary sugar at other times throughout the day).

[abear]

Originally Posted by musclesntx

You're definitely right that you have to listen to your body. I take my time with my drink-it usually takes me 15-25 minutes to finish it. If I down it fast, I feel like crap. It's also loaded with water, so it's as dilluted as possible.

damn, now you see. it was so long ago, i dont remember if i downed it or took my time with it. since i felt like crap myself, i probably took it too fast.

point taken. probably this winter i'll give it another go and see how i do. i'll raise them a little at a time to adjust myself to it.

[musclesntx]

Oh, believe me, if you down it, it will float you.
Good idea on slowly raising them. Too many people jack it up in one day, and feel like ass, and decide that it's making them fat (bloated and fat are different).

[alan aragon]

hello gentlepeople..

thanks D, for referring me to this discussion board.

musclesntx, i have to correct you on a few things, i hope you don't mind.

Originally Posted by musclesntx

I took a look at the guide you sent me, and I have a few things I'd debate in that.

First, he suggests that ideal scenarios for a pre-wo meal both contain up to 60g of protein... But back to my point-there are few, if any times your body can process 60g of protein, and even if it is a fast absorbinb protein (like whey), it still doesn't make any sense to slow your body down by packing that much in 15-30 minutes before you workout.

let's get my recommendations straight:
_____________________

scenario one: a solid, full-sized balanced meal finished 60-90 minutes preworkout consisting of 30-60g protein (0.2-0.25g/lb target BW) + 40-80g low to moderate GI carb. (0.33g/lb target BW).

scenario two: a liquid meal or shake finished 15-30min preworkout:
---- 20-50g protein (0.15-0.2g/lb target BW)
---- 40-80g low to moderate GI carbs. (0.33g/lb target BW).

scenario 3: the above 2 scenarios in succession in the above listed time frames. this is ideal, but not always within the realm of reality for folks who train first thing in the morning before work.
___________________

you seem stuck on the figure of 60g protein, saying i listed it for both scenarios. in scenario 2, i didn't even list that figure. i listed 50g as a possibility of the upper end. now do the math (0.15-0.2g/lb).. i listed 20-50g as the ballpark range. the only people who would require the upper end of 50g protein in scenario 2 would have to be shooting for a bodyweight of 250. i work with MANY guys this size who can take in this much appx 20 minutes preworkout within a liquid meal context & experience zero gastrointestinal distress or energy flux issues. now take the average joe on the other hand, who's targeting a bodyweight of 175 lbs. his range for pre-workout protein, based on the math (0.15-0.2g/lb) would be roughly 25-35g protein. 60g pro is nowhere in sight for the preworkout liquid meal unless your target bodyweight is 300-400lbs. now if you were a 350lb bodybuilder like gunther schlierkamp in the offseason, i see absolutely no problem with 60g protein preworkout. it's all in the math, but you gotta relay my info correctly.

He also suggests low GI carbs 15-30 minutes prior to workout. It takes a little longer for those carbs to empty out of the stomach. When your stomach has food in it, more blood is sent to the stomach area. While you're working out, you do NOT want your stomach full of food-you want blood flowing to your muscles. (Kind of like mom telling you not to swim for 20 minutes after you eat).

incorrect again. i recommend anything from low to moderate GI carbs, not low GI specifically as you relayed. basically, i'm indicating the suboptimal nature of high-GI preworkout sources on substrate utilization during exercise (those not into the minutia of sports nutrition need not ruminate over that statement).

as far as my 15-30 minutes prior recommendation goes, i'm stating that the trainee should be finished with the liquid meal within this proximity to the workout. this averages at roughly 20 minutes prior to training, and allows the trainee to hit the weights at the beginning of the absorptive phase. the liquid nature of shakes/solutions allows nearly complete gastric emptying by the time the workout begins, leaving absorption @ the small intestine to occur thereafter for the duration of the training bout. there is very little digestion (in the technical sense involving markedky elevated peristalsis, etc) necessary for liquid meals.

you would want to be in the absorption phase (as opposed to the digestion phase) of the preworkout meal during the workout, and this is accomplished by having a liquid meal. finishing your preworkout shake within the said timeframe allows the absorptive phase to last thoughout most of the training bout - which is a good thing.

more about gastric emptying - if you read the post carefully, i mentioned that all trainees should swill down water liberally during the workout. in the case of the shake finished 15-30 minutes prior to training, gastric emptying & as you said, "blood flowing to muscles" is not an issue at all. gastric emptying would be further accelerated by h20 intake during training, since gastric emptying rate is directly proportional to the level of stomach content.

As far as during the workout, I suggest water along with a sports drink MORE to aid hydration and to keep electrolyte levels high, but since you're drinking something, it wouldn't hurt to assist in repair and cortisol suppressing. I definitely don't recommend more than 15g of whey, and I personally keep it as low as 10 (just enough to keep my BCAAs)

I do believe that the post-workout is a very important meal, but I believe that the pre-workout rivals its importance as the MOST important. The reason I believe that it is crucial to give your body a high dose of high GI carbs is because exercise increases the insulin response of the body. High GI carbs will raise insulin. Now add the protein. Higher insulin will result in higher protein absorption and synthesis. So to say that this meal isn't very important isn't accurate. Is it the most important? I believe EVERY meal is important, and take every meal as serious as my post-workout meal.

i agree with you that all meals are equally important, but more qualification is needed before you can blanketly recommend a sports drink during-workout. there are specific things to consider, & here they are:

first off, it benefits ALL athletes, including bodybuilders, to be absorbing fuel during exercise, versus training in a fasted state. this point is not debatable. now.. fuel absorption during exercise can be achieved by EITHER a preW meal/shake (depending upon size & nature) OR a during workout shake (DWS). the absolute necessity of a DWS really depends upon what you've had prior to training. if you're fasted, then duh geniuses, of course a properly diluted DWS will help overall performance & force production, & hence be a very good thing. but if you go into a workout during the absorption phase of a preworkout meal, then the DWS is not necessary, unless we take the hypothetical scenario of your workouts approaching or exceeding 2hrs. now stick with me here for a second.. if the DWS is not necessary for performance purposes if you train during the absorption phase of your preW meal/shake, does this mean that the DWS has no benefit at all? no, actually flavored carb/electrolyte solutions motivate trainees to drink more during exercise, & hence maintain a better hydration. the latter point is actually more applicable to endurance athletes, but i'm sure there is some crossover applicability to pre-contest BB training where the cardio is kicked up several notches & similar substrate systems are used.

to drive the point further, there is absolutely no negative effect of employing a DWS for bodybuilding-type resistance training. the only way a DWS can at all be negative is if these calories contribute to an unused surplus that is partitioned towards adipose -- but that's the sole result of a poorly designed diet in terms of overall energetics. the whole GH inhibition by insulin during workout is pretty much an irrelevant concern. why? because the ultimate goal of nutrient timing is to maximize training performance (and recovery), which is really THEE point of genesis for a better body comp. every other objective, such as type of fuel use during exercise, is secondary at best, especially for the bodybuilder. why? because we're trying mainly to cause a greater thermic effect of training on a 24-hr-a-day basis, which is the bigger picture, vs targeting during-training substrate use.

okay, i'm done with the bodybuilding commentary. i think it's important to differentiate the sports we're talking about, because 99.999999999999999999999 of the research is not done using bodybuilding regimes. again, goal clarification is critical here, because a lot of times folks tend to intermingle the objectives of 2 totally different sports in discussions like this one.

for what it's worth, in endurance athletes, there are h20 availability issues if the DW solution isn't composed right. if the solute concentration (ie, the carbs therein) of your DWS exceeds appx 10%, you will limit speed of gastric emptying of h2o, thereby limiting its availability to tissues. as a sidenote here, pure glucose preloads have been shown to actually hamper performance compared to control in the absence of a DWS. although not seen with a low-GI carb preload, this phenomenon can be eliminated with a DWS. so in a sense, another benefit of the DWS for endurance athletes is the prevention of the possibility of rebound hypoglycemia, which can happen in some, but certainly not all individuals given a hi-GI preload. continuing with this tangent, high or low GI carbs preloads show no difference in endurance performance, but they do alter substrate oxidation during training (more fat ox. in low-GI groups) as well as glycogen sparing to a small degree (more glycogen spared in low-GI groups).

yes, that was a long response, but it should clear up a few misconceptions & oversimplifications.

musclesntx, if you have any questions or need any advice, i've been known to dish it out for free on occasion . btw, i'm a continuing education provider for registered dietitians & certified personal trainers. my private nutrition practice is in thousand oaks, CA. i used to be a personal trainer, now i'm a nutrition consultant who mainly works with bodybuilders & other athletes. if you want further info, hit up my siggy. oh and btw - i'm going to be lecturing more out of state, if you can refer me to a good place to hold a 1-day talk in san antonio, i'd appreciate it. thanks.

[musclesntx]

alan,
(I don't have the time to give one of my normal long winded responses, so I'm going to try to get to the point). To be honest, I originally skimmed your article, but I do still have some debate (I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing, I hate that).

If you noticed, I said that you recommended "up to" 60g. I recognized the math, here are my problems:
-In either scenario, I just don't believe that the body would be in the absorptive phase with the time frames that you stated-with the amounts that you are recommending, I believe that the body would still be in the digestive phase, thus hindering production. Although I am in agreement that you definitely need these materials, but I can't agree with the amounts that you recommend in the time frames that you recommend. Further down, you mentioned the "blood flowing to muscles". Given the amounts of protein that you recommended (even finishing the drink 20 minutes prior to training), I still believe that amount would definitely hinder the rate at which the stomach was emptied, even with a fast absorbing protein (ie whey).


-We seem to be in somewhat agreement with the DWS. I believe that if your diet is clean from top to bottom, the low amounts of nutrients that I recommend in the DWS has little chance to convert to adipose. I believe that this type of drink does have more of a glycogen sparing effect than you mention.

-I generalized my DWS with "sports drink". In my original post, I stated that I would add a little bit of whey to it. Just wanted to clarify that I didn't mean just Gatorade or whatever (however, I believe that using a drink LIKE Gatorade or whatever is better than using nothing).

I still standby my original post here, of which I mentioned the pre-workout drink in the energy phase, the dws during the workout phase, and the post-workout drinks during the anabolic and growth phases. I will say that you know what you're talking about, but this is by no means a direct science. I could've better qualified my amounts by using examples for different sizes of bodybuilders/athletes instead of using ranges.

I will say that you are 100% correct that most (over 99.9999999%) of tests conducted on athletes is done on endurance athletes, and compared to other facets of sports nutrition, little is known about bodybuilding nutrition. I have and do advise some endurance athletes, but for the most part, I deal with bodybuilders and football players, from high school to the professional level.

b

[alan aragon]

Originally Posted by musclesntx

Although I am in agreement that you definitely need these materials, but I can't agree with the amounts that you recommend in the time frames that you recommend. Further down, you mentioned the "blood flowing to muscles". Given the amounts of protein that you recommended (even finishing the drink 20 minutes prior to training), I still believe that amount would definitely hinder the rate at which the stomach was emptied, even with a fast absorbing protein (ie whey).

i still disagree with you. the body in fact would be starting the absorptive phase of a liquid meal @ the 20 minute mark. and let's say, for the sake of discussion that it this is not the case, it's still a nonissue, because the demand for blood for muscular work takes physiological precedent over digestive processes, when viewed in a circulatory hierarchy sense. skeletal muscle can command the necessary blood volume ON DEMAND. and also, tolerance for digestion during training is highly individual, but it's rarely a concern for bodybuilding training performance in the event of a liquid meal. as mentioned, optimizing gastric emptying to get water & fuel substrates to tissues during training is a different set of objectives for endurance sports. furthermore, the following quote about gastric emptying acceleration via during-workout water intake bears repeating:

"more about gastric emptying - if you read the post carefully, i mentioned that all trainees should swill down water liberally during the workout. in the case of the shake finished 15-30 minutes prior to training, gastric emptying & as you said, "blood flowing to muscles" is not an issue at all. gastric emptying would be further accelerated by h20 intake during training, since gastric emptying rate is directly proportional to the level of stomach content."

good discussion here.