Nutrition Countdown - Pre/During/Post workout nutrition

[musclesntx]

Great discussion here (although it's hard, I'm trying to watch Ken get to 1 million dollars on Jeopardy-I should be working).
I believe that the amounts of protein that the body can process at one time has been greatly over-exaggerated (greatly due to the word of supplement producers and magazines which are influenced by the former). I am aware that digestion is secondary to muscular in "blood precedence", but having a partially full stomach would still take away from the rest of the body, which explains the sluggish or lethargic feeling that many athletes feel while training too soon after a meal. But since the body puts the digestion/absorption on hold, you're asking for the excess protein to be stored as fat.

Again, I think that we do agree on quite a bit of this (but a few numbers). I don't believe we're as far apart as one would believe by reading this post-hell, we may be counting hairs at this point.
I will be the first to apologize that it did appear that I took some things out of context---I hate when people do that to me, and I could've used your entire ranges, as opposed to framing my argument by using your upper numbers.

I do respect your opinion and credentials, but I'd guess it's just safe to say that we agree to disagree.

b

[thanatopsis]

Boyd,

How about 35g carbs during lifting and 40g immediatly after, no more than 15 minutes, in my shake? I'm definatly not scared of carbs, just getting too many total calories Seems kinda low based on what you posted, but I do get a full meal about 60 minutes after my PWO shake and generally get quite a few carbs, albeit mostly complex.

My diet as it is hits 3,500 calories per day and I gained 11 lbs on that in 6 weeks (not 100% lean, but still alot of muscle). For the life of me I can't figure out how to get these high levels of carbs and not hit will over 4,000 calories a day!

[bar scrapper]

Don't you think taking in 100+ grams of simple carbs at once is a bit much

[musclesntx]

Jacob,
That may be a little low, but a lot of it would depend on what is included in your pre-workout nutrition. It would be hard for me to say how depleted your glycogen stores are without knowing that, and without knowing the type of workouts you are doing...

Hey bar,
It has been a while. How are you? There are definitely times when the high amounts of carbs (80-100) are acceptable. Don't get me wrong-I wouldn't down that number while I was laid up on the couch, but would definitely approach it in my pre or post-workout (I'm getting ready to go do back in a few minutes).

BTW, I'm going to the MLB All-Star Game in Houston in a few hours, so y'all enjoy yourselves tonight. I'm pretty excited about it, and it should be a good time. I'll have my palm with me, but I doubt I'll be around much.

[alan aragon]

Originally Posted by musclesntx

Great discussion here (although it's hard, I'm trying to watch Ken get to 1 million dollars on Jeopardy-I should be working).
I believe that the amounts of protein that the body can process at one time has been greatly over-exaggerated (greatly due to the word of supplement producers and magazines which are influenced by the former). I am aware that digestion is secondary to muscular in "blood precedence", but having a partially full stomach would still take away from the rest of the body, which explains the sluggish or lethargic feeling that many athletes feel while training too soon after a meal. But since the body puts the digestion/absorption on hold, you're asking for the excess protein to be stored as fat.

Again, I think that we do agree on quite a bit of this (but a few numbers). I don't believe we're as far apart as one would believe by reading this post-hell, we may be counting hairs at this point.
I will be the first to apologize that it did appear that I took some things out of context---I hate when people do that to me, and I could've used your entire ranges, as opposed to framing my argument by using your upper numbers.

I do respect your opinion and credentials, but I'd guess it's just safe to say that we agree to disagree.

b

boyd, in contrast to many cyberites i could've carried on with, you've been quite gracious & civil in your approach to debating points, so i almost want to honor your preference to leave this one as was.. but i gotta nail your contention about fat storage. you singled out excess protein, and as you and i both know, it can be any one, or a combination of the macros that can contribute to storage. furthermore, digestion isn't "put on hold" in the event of circulatory demand from working muscle. i could go on for pages about the mechanics of net lipogenesis, and it's not as simple as being the result of endstage digestion occuring during anaerobic threshold & glycolytic training. finally, i listed the range of 15-30 minutes to cover individual variations in digestive/absorptive capacity of liquid meals prior to training. another adjacent topic we could delve into is how digestion & absorption are not mutually exclusive, and in fact occur simulatneously on an inverse axis. picture the sands of time slipping through an hourglass. the top swell can be viewed as the stomach, and the bottom swell as the small intestine. as the bottom fills - now use your imagination - nutrients are crossing the brush border & then being released into systemic circulation. the top can certainly be emptying while the bottom fills (we actually need a 3rd swell here to signify systemic circulation).. as you mentioned, our methods are similar. mine is geared toward insuring that absorption occurs through most of the workout. it seems our point of conflict is over the actual time it takes to digest a liquid meal. this of course, is gonna depend on the size & composition of the meal, and you take a more conservative view. i suggest you re-read my material, because i still feel like you missed a lot of the stuff while watching jeopardy, lol. in either case, this is a cool board from what i can see so far, and i may continue to piss away the sands of time over here on occasion.

[thanatopsis]

Boyd,

Here is a section of my food log from when I was lifting heavy two weeks ago:

Before bed the previous day:
Muscle Milk w/ 2 cup skim

Woke up about 10:45 this day.

CAL/PROT/CARB
Muscle Milk w/ 2 cup skim -- 11:00 AM
354 / 32 / 32

Cheerios Cereal Bar -- 11:35 AM
160 / 6 / 26

Bagel w/ cheese -- 12:00 PM
290 / 20 / 51

Gatorade -- 12:35 PM
125 / 0 / 35

Cheerios Cereal Bar -- 2:45 PM
160 / 6 / 26

LIFTING w/ Gatorade

ON 100% Whey Shake -- 4:25 PM
220 / 46 / 6

Bananna -- 4:55 PM
170 / 3/ 40

--------------------

Since I've got more information I was going to change my routine to something like this:

Waking up:
ON 100% Whey Shake
In put on this? I figured it would be a good idea so I'm not starved for protein in the morning. But your guide seems to say differently. I'm willing to change it if need be.

Morning Meal:
Lean Cuisine or Bagel Sandwich
and
Cheerios Bar

Pre-Workout:
ON 100% Whey Shake
Got this idea from the HST website. Comments?

During:
Gatorade -- the 35 g carbs I mentioned

Post-Workout:
ON Aftermax Protein -- 40 g carbs I mentioned

45-60 mins later:
Lean Cuisine or Bagel Sandwich or Tuna Sandwich
and
Bananna or other small snack

Bed Time:
ON Pro Complex PM Protein
Less fat and calories than muscle milk and a little cheaper

I'm definatly open to suggestions. I have all the ON protein products now so I'll ADD things in addition to them at certain times or move them around if need be, but they need to be a part of my cycle at least until I run out

Your guide looks alot different than my setup... so I have a feeling I need to change things around. I'm trying to cut now so my calories will need to be 3000 or so and no more than 3500 per day (as I said, 3500 put 11 lbs on me in 6 weeks).

Thanks for bringing your expertise to the board. I'm having a good time reading your articles thusfar.

[abear]

Originally Posted by Dave

B speaks....someone sticky this

[musclesntx]

Ok, one more post before I leave for the All-Star game!

Correct, it can be any combo of macronutrients that can cause fat storage, but I guarantee with that amount of pro in your stomach, you're going to have some of the carbs in there as well.

I know it doesn't put it (digestion) on hold, but it does become secondary to the other muscular systems.

Your mentioning of net lipo and such is one of the topics that I absolutely love to study.

I have no qualm in giving credit where credit is due-I definitely take my hat off to you, and I do believe that you are an expert in the field of athletic nutrition. From this brief conversation, I see that you mention things that few others delve in to (VERY FEW). I always tell all of my clients that I am still learning, and as most of us, I do have quite a bit to go. All of my courses (college and CEU type) and experiences are just the beginning for me. With that being said, I encourage the members of this board to pick your brain, I know you have a lot to offer in the field of nutrition. I also know that I do (ask Dexter Coakley of the Cowboys haha).

I also thank you for your civil manner of your discussion.

Now, I'm leaving for H-town!

Jacob shoot me an email with all of that info, and I'll check it out as soon as I get back (I don't want to forget). Same to everyone else-there's a much better chance of me seeing an email than a post! With a baby on the way in 2 months, training full-time, and getting my own ass ready for a show in 14 weeks, I'm quite busy!!!

Later guys (and gals),
B

[Vplayer]

Originally Posted by alan aragon

i could go on for pages about the mechanics of net lipogenesis,

Please dont......just......dont.

[alan aragon]

Originally Posted by Vplayer

Please dont......just......dont.

vplayer - eh, you gotta forgive me. i tend to get hypertechnical when it comes to nutrition. but sometimes it's called for, and in this case it was.

boyd - good luck with your wife's final stage of pregnancy & your new baby. congrats man. i have a 5-month old boy, my first kid. fatherhood is actually a more awesome, humbling thing than people build it up to be.

[Vplayer]

Originally Posted by alan aragon

vplayer - eh, you gotta forgive me. i tend to get hypertechnical when it comes to nutrition. but sometimes it's called for, and in this case it was.

I definately see where you're coming from because I understand you. But all those terms......I got a headache reading your posts and I understood every word. I myself have a tendancy to not put things in simple terms and it was almost like lookin in a mirror.....it was scary.

But I cant help myself....this thread is now very addictive. Watching you and my hero (Boyd) have a "sit down" is like watching Kasparov and Bobby Fischer going at it: only a very few would submit themselves to such torture. But when you do you just cant get up. Not even to take a leak.

[alan aragon]

Originally Posted by Vplayer

Watching you and my hero (Boyd) have a "sit down" is like watching Kasparov and Bobby Fischer going at it: only a very few would submit themselves to such torture. But when you do you just cant get up. Not even to take a leak.

aaaahahaha!

that's some classic sh1t. we bodybuilders are a strange minority indeed. cheers to being obsessed, my man.

*clink*

[Vplayer]

Originally Posted by alan aragon

cheers to being obsessed, my man.

*clink*

*clink*


(damn i gotta go pee)

[Abeus]

i find if i eat more than 1 hour 45minuts before training i dont have enough energy even if its complex carbs and i feel a bit dizzy and cant really push as hard as usual. but i gues thats just me, maybe my metabloism is in over drive. or maybe my complex carbs arent complex enough hmmmm . i tried having glucose during training and i had a sugar rush and then the typical low afterwards so i gues it worked but not for long and the negative afterwards was worse than the positive. i find drinking water is a good thing but just sips because other wise i get dizzy and puke.

[RoaringMad Mac]

Hey Boyd, what would you recommend for someone who makes my first meal just an hour before I go to the gym . I work 3rd shift and wake up about 2 in the afternoon. I have recently been just downing a protein ( Low Carb) I know this is bad because I have been trying to loose weight. I know now I want to save all of this muscle I have got. Look at my pics in the member pics thread. I am RoaringMad Mac. Back on topic. I down a protein shake and after I finish out work out I down another one. I do not do any of the carbs knowing I should.

I guess what I am trying to say is what am I supposed to be making for my first drink or meal before I go to the gym. Your help is greatly appriciated.

[blue steel]

i agree with everything except for drinking protein during your workout.

[Sera]

How would you adjust carb and protein (pre and post workout) intake for a vegan diet? Thanks.

[Rickster]

T-PLUS 0:01 AND COUNTING
AFter your workout, go for about 40-50g of protein and approximately 40-100g of carbs. In terms of timing, the general rule is the sooner, the better - you want your meal to get to its muscle destination as quickly as possible. This means your protein choice should be whey (isolate and/or hydrolysate). For carbs, take in pure glucose or dextrose (without the maltodextrin). This combination will help spike your insulin, an important anabolic hormone that increases glucose and amino acid uptake to help repair and build muscle mass. If you're supplementing with creatine, one way to kill 2 birds with 1 stone is to mix whey with a high-glucose creatine product. This will also help drive the creatine into the muscle cells.
If you've already had before-and during-workout drinks, then you've set the wheels in motion to aid recovery. You can relax somewhat after you're done training and catch up with your gym mates or that hottie at the front desk. You'll be fine as long as you get home and have the proper drink within an hour.
However if drinking a shake before or during a workout upsets your stomach or you just dont like drinking a mix in the gym, then time is of the essence when your training ends. Bring your drink with you.

T-PLUS 1:00 AND COUNTING
Optimally, you should eat again an hour after your postworkout shake. Research shows that a second postworkout meal an hour after the first boosts of protein synthesis of the muscle tissue back up again into the muscle building realm. Here you can go a little lighter with the carbohydrate and hit a 1:1 ratio of protein to carbs. You don't need as many carbs at this point because your previous drink has helped satisfy that need.
Another option is to eat a whole food meal at this point. You'll probably be hungry for real food then, and it's an ideal time to have a full fledged bodybuilding meal. Have a large cut of lean meat, vegetables and a complex carb source such as brown rice or yams.

someone give me a post workout meal they have usually....well just recently i'm using water for post workout shake with water so its just 24g of protein i need to raise that i know but for the insulin spike what foods have can i eat that have glucose and dextrose??????????

would it be drinks like grape juice, cranberry juice??

[Rickster]

bump >_< someone??????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????