Facts On Creatine

[NiteHawk]

Originally Posted by Matt58

Ok so on 8 weeks and then off like 2-4 weeks? I'm also kind of new to the whole creatine loading/reloading phases and that, so how does that work? Like I said i'll be getting ISS Research 1000gms mono and 5g per scoop.

When I would get creatine before i'd just take what it recommended from day 1 untill I ran out. So don't really get what you mean to "load up" on the mono after pumps go away?? I was just going to start with 5g morning and 5g PWO and keep doing that.

But enlighten me on how to load/reload, I want to get the best out this that I can.

Thanks.

Matt, here is an excerpt from my front page on loading...

Loading is not necessary. The loading phase means taking 20 grams a day in 4 divided doses for 5 days then doing a maintenance phase of about 3-5 grams per day. You can however achieve the same results by not loading and only taking 5 grams a day and it will take about 21 days to achieve the same muscle saturation as the loading phase. The 5 day loading phase will just get you saturated quicker. Some say to cycle off creatine for 4 weeks once every 2-3 months. There is no data to support doing this. It does take about 21-28 days of being off creatine to get your body's creatine levels back to normal.

After you train is the ideal time to take creatine. Use a carb/protein beverage will spike insulin levels helping to drive creatine into the muscle. A juice with a high glycemic index carbs to spike insulin is a good choice to use with your creatine. This too will create an insulin spike and help absorb the creatine better. A method I like to use is taking a heaping teaspoon of creatine, just putting it in your mouth and chasing it with a glass of grape juice and then drink another 8 ounces of water. Its easy, fast, and no mixing required.

[NiteHawk]

Originally Posted by Traps

Come on NiteHawk, just agree with me for once. haha... In the end you have no choice anyway.

I am agreeing with you..I am agreeing that regular monohydrate is the way to go...

[Matt58]

Originally Posted by NiteHawk

Matt, here is an excerpt from my front page on loading...

Loading is not necessary. The loading phase means taking 20 grams a day in 4 divided doses for 5 days then doing a maintenance phase of about 3-5 grams per day. You can however achieve the same results by not loading and only taking 5 grams a day and it will take about 21 days to achieve the same muscle saturation as the loading phase. The 5 day loading phase will just get you saturated quicker. Some say to cycle off creatine for 4 weeks once every 2-3 months. There is no data to support doing this. It does take about 21-28 days of being off creatine to get your body's creatine levels back to normal.

After you train is the ideal time to take creatine. Use a carb/protein beverage will spike insulin levels helping to drive creatine into the muscle. A juice with a high glycemic index carbs to spike insulin is a good choice to use with your creatine. This too will create an insulin spike and help absorb the creatine better. A method I like to use is taking a heaping teaspoon of creatine, just putting it in your mouth and chasing it with a glass of grape juice and then drink another 8 ounces of water. Its easy, fast, and no mixing required.

Thanks for the info. What I was planning on doing with mono and somewhat similar to what Traps does,except my dosings will be closer, is:

Upon wakening say 7:45 AA- 5g of creatine mono w/40g of dextrose then chase with 20g of whey and 5g leucine with 16oz of water....eat 30-45 mins later breakfast-preworkout meal

Then PWO 10:45 AM- 5g of creatine mono w/ 40g dextrose then chase with 40g of whey with 10g leucine

[Traps]

I'm still concerned that your doses are timed too close together. I'm thinking it might be better to take it post workout, and then again in the evening. Rather than before and after workout. Remember this is only for your "maintenance phase" Loading phase is another ball game, you got 3 to 5 doses to manage throughout each day for 3 to 5 days.

In fact, I definately suggest doing the pwo dose, and evening dose cycle. I think you'll get much more out of it this way during your workouts, and throughout the day. BTW, be prepared to wake up in the morning with raging wood, and a bladder ready to explode. or maybe thats just me

On another note.......
Your protein/carb ratio isnt correct..... Post workout should be 0.8g of carbohydrate and 0.4 g of protein / kg of body weight. Divide carb and protein grams in half for all other doses. Remember 1kg = 2.2 lbs

[Rickster]

I noticed something when i was drinking my grape juice...when i looked at the label of ingredients it had "absorbic acid" and creatine + acidic evironment=creatinine?

[Matt58]

Originally Posted by Traps

I'm still concerned that your doses are timed too close together. I'm thinking it might be better to take it post workout, and then again in the evening. Rather than before and after workout. Remember this is only for your "maintenance phase" Loading phase is another ball game, you got 3 to 5 doses to manage throughout each day for 3 to 5 days.

In fact, I definately suggest doing the pwo dose, and evening dose cycle. I think you'll get much more out of it this way during your workouts, and throughout the day. BTW, be prepared to wake up in the morning with raging wood, and a bladder ready to explode. or maybe thats just me

On another note.......
Your protein/carb ratio isnt correct..... Post workout should be 0.8g of carbohydrate and 0.4 g of protein / kg of body weight. Divide carb and protein grams in half for all other doses. Remember 1kg = 2.2 lbs

Alright I'll just take it PWO and again later in the day. How much longer should it be though? Say I take my PWO at 10:45AM, 2nd dosage around 4:45PM. So 6 hours later compared to 4 hours.

And when stacking it for the first 3-5 days how spread out should each dosage be? And should EACH one have dextrose and protein with it?

So for me, 170lbs(77.27kg): PWO: 60g of carbs(dextrose)/30g says calculator but i'll probably have 40g PWO. Then later dose: 30g dextrose and 20g protein.

[NiteHawk]

Matt, you dont need protein everytime you dose creatine.

If you just do the grape juice method, its much easier and effective. Just 1 glass of grape juice and 1 glass of water afterwards.

I would take my dosages, if you load as follows...

1 in the morning
1 pre-workout
1 post workout
1 during an evening meal.

5 grams per each serving. Dont take a serving around bedtime, you dont want that insulin spike at bedtime.

[Traps]

Originally Posted by Matt58

Alright I'll just take it PWO and again later in the day. How much longer should it be though? Say I take my PWO at 10:45AM, 2nd dosage around 4:45PM. So 6 hours later compared to 4 hours.

And when stacking it for the first 3-5 days how spread out should each dosage be? And should EACH one have dextrose and protein with it?

So for me, 170lbs(77.27kg): PWO: 60g of carbs(dextrose)/30g says calculator but i'll probably have 40g PWO. Then later dose: 30g dextrose and 20g protein.

For loading/reloading and maintenance phases keep the doses spread out as evenly as possible.

Originally Posted by NiteHawk

Matt, you dont need protein everytime you dose creatine.

If you just do the grape juice method, its much easier and effective. Just 1 glass of grape juice and 1 glass of water afterwards.

I would take my dosages, if you load as follows...

1 in the morning
1 pre-workout
1 post workout
1 during an evening meal.

From what you have read, you should already be aware that you get a better insulin response when combining carbohydrates with protein, and even better still when you throw in leucine. Those 3 together make for a nice multi-benefit to a creatine dose, especially post workout. Not only do you get a strong insulin spike to open cellular pathways for nutrient uptake. But at the same time, your getting amino's into your bloodstream to take advantage of leucines protein synthesis stimulating properties. Remember creatine is more than just something to recharge ATP. I firmly believe it has muscle building qualities as well. Distinctly seperate from gains that could be achieved from a simple performance boost.

Dont forget to drink 20 to 25 oz of skim milk with 20-25 grams of whey, 30-60 minutes after you take a creatine dose. The reasoning is to keep the protein synthesis train rolling, and provide more liquid for your muscles to absorb. If you are planning on eating around this time, then just drink the milk, and get the rest of protein from food, dont throw in any whey. Your muscles are begging for liquid during this 30-60 minute window(45 minutes seems to be the best for me). Another thing( yeah, i'm going a little overboard now but ....) during this 1 hour period after you take the creatine, try to keep your movement to a minimum. I've noticed time and time again, that after my dose, if I go runn'n around, I dont absorb as much liquid than if I just sat down and relaxed. Anyways, I just thought I'd throw that up in the air for you to catch if you want.

And by the way. Forget the grape juice. Not only does it get expensive, but it can cause constipation, and stomach upset. Much more so than dextrose. Its glycemic index is lower than dextrose too, meaning it causes a lower insulin response.

Oh man, one more thing I completely forgot about. Sodium also increases nutrient uptake into cells. I dont know how much should be enough, but this is something to definately consider adding to at least a PWO shake. Do some research on it, and let me know what you find out. (that is to say if I dont find the answer first.... Which I doubt because I'm kinda busy developing some software right now)

Originally Posted by NiteHawk

5 grams per each serving. Dont take a serving around bedtime, you dont want that insulin spike at bedtime.

Yeah, Nite's correct about this. Plan your evening dose so that you allow enough time after the dose to get one more meal in, and then of course some time to digest and go to bed.

[Matt58]

Alright thanks, i'll take note on that. Great info

The only things I've found about sodium and PWO is to replenish electrolytes and you won't be delaying hydration. The site recommended "Morton's Lite Salt", and said should be able to find at a local grocery store:

Sodium and Potassium

Sodium and potassium are electrolytes that are lost in sweat. This loss is especially significant if one is exercising in hot weather, or as I do in a gym that is not air-conditioned in the summer. Since a loss of such electrolytes can lead to cramping and other problems, replenishing them is a good idea. There are a lot of different products that can be used for a source of sodium and potassium, but I have found one of the cheapest is Morton's Lite Salt, which should be available at most standard grocery stores.

Lite Salt is composed of half sodium chloride and half potassium chloride. It is mainly designed for those who are trying to cut back on their sodium intake. But here, I am mainly looking at it as source of both electrolytes. 1/4 teaspoon contains 290 mg of sodium and 340 mg of potassium.

I have found a 1/4 teaspoon much made me too thirsty afterwards. So I only use 1/8 teaspoon, and I only use it when it in the summer months and then only when it is particularly hot. I don't feel it is necessary otherwise as with just the naturally occurring sodium and potassium in the other ingredients, my post-workout drink contains 81 mg of sodium and 269 mg of potassium. With the 1/8 teaspoon of Lite Salt, it contains a total of 226mg of sodium and 439mg of potassium.
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.....So during those 3-5 days of loading i'll be taking 30g of dextrose(1/2 amount of PWO) with each dosing, morning,pre-wo,PWO,30 mins before OR with? an evening meal. So that'll be 120g of dextrose in 1 day. Is that ok?

..Also do you think dextrose is the best choice to go with over maltodextrin,fructose or even WMS(though it cost more than the others).

[Traps]

Here some good information about sodiums effects, and supports my theory (or fact) about how the increase of intracellular fluid retention is very anabolic, and furthermore gives reason as to why I spread my doses out, instead of before and after workout.

Sodium - Anabolic

One of the most powerful anabolic stimuli
may be sitting right on your dinner table.

Bodybuilders are constantly fed conflicting information regarding nutritional
intake. This information, dished out mainly by the magazines, is primarily
manipulated to sell you supplements. Yes, the magazines do have a vested
interest in supplements. More space is devoted to marketing their
supplements, either through articles or ads (in many cases these are one in the
same), than is devoted to non-promotional productive training and nutritional
information. Sad but true. Unfortunately you have to learn to see through the
monetarily motivated bull****.

The Sodium Dilemma

As a whole, bodybuilders who think they are serious about their diet, generally
cut out all extra sodium intake. Most are under the false notion that sodium
will make them fat, cause them to retain extra water (as if this were a bad
thing), cause high blood pressure or is just overall an unhealthy mineral. None
of which is true. First off, sodium does not cause hypertension. This is a
disease sodium can aggravate but not manifest. Secondly, sodium will not
make you fat in any way, shape, or form. Thirdly, sodium is an essential
nutrient your body can’t live without. Many functions in the body are
"sodium-dependant". They require the presence of sodium. Many amino acids
are transported by sodium carriers.

Just recently the results of a major 10 year study were released vindicating
sodium as the unhealthy mineral. In fact this study revealed that individuals
with higher sodium intake had a lower mortality rate. That's right. Those that
consumed a diet low in sodium actually died at an earlier age than those with
higher sodium intakes. That pretty much throws a serious monkey wrench into
the generally accepted thinking on sodium now doesn't it?

With these fallacies out of the way let's see how we can manipulate our
sodium intake to help increase muscular size and strength.

Sodium and Muscle Growth

Sodium is the primary positively charged ion in extra-cellular fluid. Sodium
regulates blood volume, acid-base balance, muscle and nerve function and
ATP-hydrolyzing activity in skeletal muscle. Potassium is the primary
positively charged ion in intracellular fluid. Potassium regulates intra-muscular
fluid levels, muscle and nerve function and ATP-hydrolyzing activity in skeletal
muscle.

As you can see, sodium and potassium perform very similar functions with the
major difference being in the intra and extra-cellular fluid regulation. Most
everyone is aware that sodium has an effect on subcutaneous (under the skin)
fluid retention. Potassium has its effect on fluid inside the muscle cell. What
most don’t realize is that these two minerals are constantly striving for
equilibrium. When one gets out of line with the other your system will strive to
adjust to the underlying situation.

When you cut your sodium intake, your body will quickly compensate by
holding more sodium in and releasing potassium out thereby decreasing fluid
inside the muscle cell. When you increase your sodium intake your body will
compensate by holding more potassium in (increasing intra-muscular fluid) and
increasing the excretion of sodium.

Sodium, potassium and the balance between the two can have a prominent
impact on muscle size and anabolism (increased cellular fluid inside the muscle
cell promotes an anabolic response in muscle tissue) as well as strength
through increase joint leverage. Also, elevated sodium and potassium levels
will tend to prevent soft tissue injuries so common in heavy training.

Sodium's Influence

Increases muscle size through an increase in muscle cell
fluid volume.

Increasing cellular fluid increases protein turnover and
overload stimulated lean tissue accrual.

Increased intra and extra-cellular fluid increases joint
leverage positively impacting strength for greater muscle
overload.

Increased intra and extra-cellular fluid decreases muscle
strains and helps protect soft and connective tissue from
injury.

Many critical amino acids are "sodium-dependant". This
means they actually have to attach to a sodium molecule
to enter the muscle cell.

Getting Enough

You can get enough potassium from a good multi-mineral supplement.
Bananas are also an excellent source and are highly recommended. Each bite
has about 100 milligrams of potassium. Sodium is another story. The typical
athlete that eats a disciplined diet low in fat is probably not benefiting from
proper sodium intake as he should. Forget the myth of avoiding table salt.
Don’t be afraid to use salt liberally. This is important. I know, over the years
the media has pounded the “avoid salt” routine down your throat but you must
understand, not only this is geared towards the “average person” - if you train
and eat like a bodybuilder, you are not an average person - it's opposite of
what recent science has shown to be healthy.

Remember, the low/no sodium approach will limit the rate at which you can
put on muscle from both a fluid balance standpoint and through hormonal
suppression effects.

One of the key effects of steroids, especially the high androgenic ones, is their
ability to promote the retention of sodium. This sodium retention is believed to
be a major contributor to the muscle growth experienced while on steroids.
This is a relatively new area of research. The medical community can’t seem
to agree on just how and why steroids work and this appears to be an area
that has been seriously overlooked.

Sodium and potassium are regulated by aldosterone. Aldosterone is produced
in the adrenal cortex. Steroids have a direct influence on the adrenal cortex
which also produces cortisol and other glucocorticoids. See a connection?

We will have much more on the groundbreaking research into The “Sodium
-Anabolic” Connection in the near future. In the meantime, for a serious
anabolic jolt, simply increase your sodium intake by salting your food a little
more. It doesn't take a ton of salt. Just get in the habit of salting your food at
every meal. Steadily increase the amount you use over a one month period.
You'll be bigger, stronger, and much less susceptible to progress halting
injuries. And guess what? It costs only about 27 cents for a 3 month supply.

[Matt58]

*Note: Add sodium to PWO shake

Nice read, i'll start adding some salt into my meals but won't go overboard.

Can I just use regular table salt though for my PWO shake? I have Morton's Koshered and Iodized salts and sea salt. Also add it to the creatine mono and dextrose or add it to the whey and leucine?

Thanks.

[Traps]

Adding soduim is unchartered territory for me, so I dont have a proper response. As far as which drink to add it to? Personal preference.

[Matt58]

Alright now I got everything down with PWO and creatine dosages. But since I am not taking L-Leucine first thing in the morning because of needing to spread out the two dosings, when should I be taking it, besides PWO(10g)? Should I take L-Leucine(5g) right before my workout and then the 10g right after?

[Matt58]

Originally Posted by Traps

Myself, and I am sure a majority of people with any serious attitude towards their body, live their lives nearly 24/7 around fitness. I'm a little obsessive about it. I'm constantly thinking about eating, sleeping, how I can improve a lift, should I increase/decrease volume, take an extra day off, etc. Those are the types of people I think should consider including "other" supplements to their daily regimen. Well.. maybe not that extreme. Like I said I'm a little obsessive, but I think you get the point.

I'm just like that so, extremely obsessive about BB. I always think what am I going to eat next, what am I going to try to do on my next lifts like 24/7.

..I know creatine is like your favorite supp and a question crossed my mind; after you stop taking your creatine and start losing strenght and size how do you get past that and not let that continue, then go back to packing on size and increasing your lifts?
...that's what I'm worried about with taking it, is getting bigger n stronger but then losing a lot of it after about 2 months of it.

[Traps]

Its not like steroids. When you come off steroids, your boys are producing very little testosterone, if any at all. So you will lose alot if not all of your gains. People try to combat this with PCT(post cycle therapy). The purpose of which is to get your endocrine system back to normal as quickly as possible. If you dont cycle again, over a long period of time you'll ever so slowly drop back to normal size. Typically, people that do occasional cycles make no further gains in the long run than if they never took them to begin with. I'll leave the possability of some exceptions, because of genetics, but as a rule of thumb this holds true.



As far as creatine goes, you dont have to worry about that. When you come off, you lose a little size. Mostly all the extra fluid in your muscles, and the performance benefits as well(endurance and power). But the muscle built is yours to keep, so long as you continue with the "correct" lifestyle (eat-sleep-workout). Creatine isnt a magic supplement, but that extra 10% advantage you get from it adds up over time. After a short period of being off, start back up again. Rinse and repeat.

[vis1798]

OK so I'm sold on Kre-Alkalyn and have read this thread up to about #300 so I'll try not to ask what has already been answered. Someone on this thread posted that they use Ester Pump w/ Kre-Alkalyn by XS Supplements.

Kre-Alkalyn 750mg
Arginine Ethyl Ester 1500mg
Citrulline Malate 750mg