Bcaa

[pnico]

Anyone here supplement with BCAA's pre, during and post workout?
Ive been using Scivations Xtend and have noticed strength increases, less soreness and faster recovery during sets...including nice pumps..

anyone else use this product?

[TRAZ]

Not on the brand you stated, but I do take amino's pre/post workout and yes I love them. I take them on my off days too....they have helped tremendously.

[nattybber]

I take the same stuff and you are right it Helps temendously, and are pretty tasty both watermelon and grape, I highly recommend this product and all of their other products too, its a great company that will become a house hold name pretty soon.

[Poobah]

I take pure bcaa's in bulk.. during and post... And your right, they make a very huge and very much noticable improvement in recovery... specially the day after leg day.. your legs will thank you.

during, I sip on.

40g carbs (gatoraid)
10g carbs (malto)
15g protein (Whey)
30g BCAA's

and post workout

20g carbs (half a gatoraid)
5g carbs (malto)
10g protein (whey)
15g bcaa's

Then I Follow that up with some more real food in another hour or so.

[TRAZ]

Only 10g in your PWO shake? Seems like you would need more Poobs......I guess that is where the food comes in? You are way more up to date on research than I am either way so you probably know what is best.

[NiteHawk]

Im starting to take NX Care's Aminovol. I will see how that goes.

[Poobah]

Originally Posted by TRAZ

Only 10g in your PWO shake? Seems like you would need more Poobs......I guess that is where the food comes in? You are way more up to date on research than I am either way so you probably know what is best.

10g plus the 15grams bcaa's for a total of 25 grams... and yeep I hit that up with 40 more grams of egg white and another 50 grams of complex carbs in about an hours time.

I suppose the idea is.. I'm pretty much on a constant feed.. pre workout (about an hour or so..) 50-75 grams of complex carbs and 40-45 grams of protein (usually chicken breast or tuna)... then I'm working out, sipping on a cocktail that keeps my levels topped off... and I finish off, with a little more to last me till I get some more slow absorb real food in my gut... Constant and prolonged feed.. vs.. the standard workout and glutton... lol

if it wasn't for the during workout shake, I would definately want more post.. but with the during, your body is pretty happy nutritionally, and it just can't make use of to much more at that point anyway.

Anyway for simpicity and clarification... your body will use what it needs when it needs it.. it's just my job to make sure that there is enough nutrients there when called upon at all times.. but not so much to turn to fat. Tis the best way.

[TRAZ]

Makes sense.....

[wnxmaximus]

I take ON's Superior Amino 2222 tabs, thats pretty much the same thing as the BCAA caps arent they. Since it is only 2.2 grams per pill, could I take a few before and a few after my workout, even though they only say one before and one after.

[TRAZ]

That is the same as what I take. I usually take one before and one after working out. Then I take one before bed and one when I wake up. Sometimes I take one in the middle of the day around 1:30pm just to keep feeding my muscles throughout the day.

[wnxmaximus]

Do u take the soft gels tabs or the BIG @$$ white pills, they are huge, i mean, i can get em down, but my roomate freaks out, he keeps thinking i am gonna choke on one.

[Poobah]

Supplementing BCAA caps in my opinion is a poor way to spend your money...

You say each serving contains 2.2 grams of bcaa's... That must be in 3-4 caps per serving? You can't get 2.2 grams of anything in a single capsule. So I suggest you read the bottle again. Regardless though, did you know that the average whey protein contains 3-5 grams of BCAA's in the proper 2:1:1 ratio...

What I'm trying to say, is you'd be better served, and save yourself some money buy just taking some extra whey..

---

If your going to supplement bcaa's... you need to start at 20gram mark.. and 30-50grams a day is more optimum. THose caps are a huge waste of money.

peace.

[wnxmaximus]

I am guessing you take a powder then?

I dont know what to tell you, you can go look up the product on Optimum Nutritions website. They are called Superior Amino 2222 Tabs. They are huge @$$ tabs so I mean, just go look it up cause they do have 2.22 grams of amino acids per tab. They were 160 for 20 dollars, so ya, i agree that powder would be cheaper, if thats what u are talking about.

What brand of powder do you use anyways.

[Shobe]

Is there one specific company thats the best brand of BCAAs in powder form??

[Poobah]

Originally Posted by wnxmaximus

I am guessing you take a powder then?

I dont know what to tell you, you can go look up the product on Optimum Nutritions website. They are called Superior Amino 2222 Tabs. They are huge @$$ tabs so I mean, just go look it up cause they do have 2.22 grams of amino acids per tab. They were 160 for 20 dollars, so ya, i agree that powder would be cheaper, if thats what u are talking about.

What brand of powder do you use anyways.

oh I see.. thank for clearing it up... but ya, it's still a huge waste of money compared to bulk powder that you can easily throw in your gatoraid. (bcaa don't taste to bad... nothing like cee)

Last I checked Synergy / USPlabs offered the best price on 1kg of pure bcaa powders. 30 USD.

[houseman]

Originally Posted by Poobah

oh I see.. thank for clearing it up... but ya, it's still a huge waste of money compared to bulk powder that you can easily throw in your gatoraid. (bcaa don't taste to bad... nothing like cee)

Last I checked Synergy / USPlabs offered the best price on 1kg of pure bcaa powders. 30 USD.

Poob:

Do you think there is market demand for bulk BCAA powder here in Canada. This has been on my hit list to do for a while but given the high cost of raws and factoring in market demand... I am just not sure on how well it would sell.

I am a huge believer in supplemental BCAA to the point of mega dosing as long as its feasible for people. Its doable... as long as the demand in Canada is there.

Always a tough call determing demand in Canada vs. US. I KNOW what will sell without a doubt in the US. We Canadians seem to be very uneducated about things.

Aaron

[Poobah]

Originally Posted by houseman

Poob:

Do you think there is market demand for bulk BCAA powder here in Canada. This has been on my hit list to do for a while but given the high cost of raws and factoring in market demand... I am just not sure on how well it would sell.

I am a huge believer in supplemental BCAA to the point of mega dosing as long as its feasible for people. Its doable... as long as the demand in Canada is there.

Always a tough call determing demand in Canada vs. US. I KNOW what will sell without a doubt in the US. We Canadians seem to be very uneducated about things.

Aaron

Good question.. I know the demand is there if it's properly cultivated. Education is the key like you mentioned.

For instance, there is alot of guys at the gym that are dedicated to lifting, yet aren't aware of what products actually work as opposed to the products that just sound good. So they end up spending money on this that and another product, and are less then satisfied, or in the case of bcaa's they supplement caps, which in all honesty won't make much difference anyway.

As time goes on, more and more expereinced guys are coming up to me and asking me what I'm sipping, and I tell them.. then I explain why, and how it works... ANd boom... I've turned at least 3 "expereinced" guys in bcaa's because they now were educated about it, and were given a basic understanding of how it works, and a first hand account that it did indeed work.

I also parted with a few bottles of rxt at cost.... and once I explained it to them, and directed them to a place where they could read more.

So yes, I think there is a market.. But it really needs to be advertised, in a way that would enlighten canadian lifters.. cause frankly, it seems to me that even the more knowledgable canadian lifter, is a bit clueless in the supplementation world. (Not that the Canadian's are stupid, it's just the supplementation market up here is different, and not as big as it is in the states.)

An ad that states BULK BCAA's just isn't enough (Um, whats that? who cares... lol)... cause know body up here knows what it is yet... Education Education, and testimonial type ads, as well as some basic studies need to put out there for more canadians to read.

---

Other then that, House... I'm curious what kind of bulk you'd have to buy to be able to jump into the market... I've seen some pretty good quotes on all manners of bulk supps.. 1000kg though.. Although 100kg is pretty reasonable place to start I suppose.

House, hit me up with a link.. and if there is any specials I need to know about... I'm just about ready for more whey.

peace.

[Poobah]

Thought this may be interesting.. so I thought I'd share.

Originally Posted by wnxmaximus

I understand BCAA's, but I dont think completely. How are they different from protein, i mean i understand its just the concentration of the 3 BCAA's but besides that. Is the absorption rate better or something. What I am asking is what would be the benefits of taking BCAA throughout the day compared to taking a serving of whey throughout the day? I know that with the whey, alot would probably go to waste since it usually is only in the system to be absorbed for about an hour. So ya, maybe you could shed some light on this for me. Thanks!

well, first and foremost... branch chains amino acids, are utilized and broken down first before the rest of them... Having excess branch chains amino acids, also signals your body through yet unknown means, to sustain a positive nitrogen balance... which is a requirement for protein synthesis... Negative nitrogen balance, and protein can't synthesis (plain and simple).

The ratio, 2:1:1... is the ratio that your body naturally tries to sustain... through breakdown and conversion of other available proteins... (that's not a completely scientific view, just my basic understanding). The reasons of which I'm not entirely sure, but has mostly to do with simple utilization.... The micro mechanics of which, are beyond my understanding.

BCAA's would only be beneficial to you first thing in the morning, to get out of a starved state as quickly as possible, and quickly turn a negative nitrogen balance into a positive one... the rest of the day, you would eat real food.. As long as your not doing anything to vigorous, your body shouldn't have any problem converting and managing it's own amino acid profile via the food you eat.... It's only under extreme conditions, of working out, cardio, and upon waking that BCAA can be utilized to drastically reduce catabolism... through various means... mostly revolving around reduced catabolic time, and better sustained nitrogen balance.

p.s. I'm not a big believer in using alot of whey in my day... Currently I have about 25 grams a day of whey... and 260+ of protein from real food. then bcaa's on top of that.

p.s.s.. A BCAA sticky is probably in order soon. lol

[Poobah]

Here's the write up from Synergy's site. ( Karl, was Nandi... RIP... )

500g Leucine
250g Iso-leucine
250g Valine

LEUCINE stacked Branched Chain Amino Acids (BCAAs)

By Karl Hoffmann

While reserch shows that BCAAs promote anabolism in general, leucine has been shown to be the most anabolic of the BCAAs, functioning in a way similar to growth factors such as insulin and IGF-1. Hence one can conclude that the higher the ratio of leucine to the other BCAAS is in a particular amino acid supplement, the greater the anabolic reponse will be. See factor, aside from its effects as a simple nutrient. So something like a 4g:2g:2g (g=grams) ratio of leucine, isoleucine,and valine would ensure adequate supply of leucine, but still allow for absorption of the other (less anabolic but still important) BCAAs.

The Role of Branched-Chain Amino Acids in Fatigue Resistance

The branched-chain amino acids isoleucine, leucine, and valine are widely used among athletes for their protein sparing effect.

L-leucine is also known as 2-amino-4-methylvaleric acid, alpha-aminoisocaproic acid and (S)-2-amino-4-methylpentanoic acid. It is abbreviated as Leu or by its one letter abbreviation L. Its molecular formula is C6H13NO2, and its molecular weight is 131.17 daltons.

L-isoleucine is also known as 2-amino-3-methylvaleric acid, alpha-amino-beta-methylvaleric acid and (2S, 3S)-2-amino-3-methylpentanoic acid. It is abbreviated as Ile or by its one letter abbreviation I. Its molecular formula is C 6H13NO2, and its molecular weight is 131.17 daltons.

L-valine is also known as 2-aminoisovaleric acid, 2-amino-3-methylbutyric acid, alpha-aminoisovaleric acid and (S)-2-amino-3-methylbutanoic acid. It is abbreviated as Val, and its one letter abbreviation is V. Its molecular formula is C5H11NO2, and its molecular weight is 117.15 daltons.

A number of studies have shown that branched chain amino acids exert both an anabolic and ergogenic effect.

For example, one study showed that BCAA administration post exercise resulted in an approximately 30% decrease amino acid efflux from skeletal muscle. The authors concluded that BCAAs exert a post training protein-sparing effect on muscle tissue (4). These results have been verified in numerous other studies. It is now believed that BCAAs act through a specific pathway, the so-called signal transduction p70(S6k) pathway in skeletal muscle (5). p70(S6k) is believed to control growth-related protein synthesis (5). There is also some evidence that branched chain amino acids are preferentially broken down for fuel during exercise, arguing for BCAA supplementation to offset this effect. If this is the case, this might be one mechanism where BCAA supplementation would hold off fatigue. Leucine seems particularly critical in stimulating overall protein synthesis. Leucine mediated signaling results in a stimulation of initiation of mRNA translation and involves increases in the phosphorylation status of the translational repression 4E-BP1 and the ribosomal protein S6 kinase S6K1mentioned above. It also requires sustained activation of the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) protein kinase, a field of active research. Leucine, however, also signals to stimulate protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by a mammalian target of rapamycin protein kinase independent (i.e. rapamycin insensitive) pathway, suggesting that the amino acid may signal for protein synthesis through multiple pathways.

Interestingly, insulin is believed to exert at least part of its anabolic effect by activating the same p70(Sk6) pathway as leucine, but via different upstream channels. This argues for an additive role between elevated insulin levels and elevated BCAA levels in the promotion of anabolism.

There is another mechanism whereby BCAAs might prevent fatigue. We mentioned that BCAAs are used for fuel during exercise. As these amino acids become depleted, the ratio of tryptophan to BCAAs in the plasma rises (6). It turns out that tryptophan and BCAAs compete for the same amino acid transporter into the brain. The excess tryptophan in the brain is converted to serotonin, which induces a feeling of lethargy and fatigue. (Recall that tryptophan was widely used as a sleep aid.)

Interestingly men may have a greater need for BCAA supplementation than women. It is well established that women rely more on fat oxidation and less on glycogen and amino oxidation that do men during exercise. The BCAA leucine seems to be preferentially used among the amino acids as a fuel substrate in men (7).

TNF-alpha and BCAAs

Tumor necrosis factor alpha (TNF-alpha) is a cytokine produced by immune cells in the body called monocytes and macrophages. TNF exerts a number of deleterious effects on the body, including muscle wasting, and locally produced igf-1 suppression, and general fatigue. While usually associated with illness, TNF-alpha levels are also high in hypogonadal patients and overtrained athletes. In one study, lipopolysachharide, a bacterial toxin that elevates TNF-alpha, was administered to rats. One group of rats was fed citrulline malate, and one group served as controls. The citrulline malate group performed much better on treadmill tests and exhibited less overall fatigue that did the controls (8).

These results may be of significance to overtrained athletes in whom TNF-alpha is elevated, and in anabolic steroid using athletes who are essentially hypogonadal post cycle. Citrulline malate may help alleviate the fatigue associated with both these conditions.

BCAAs may suppress TNF-alpha and its damaging effects on muscle tissue as well. In one study in animals, TNF-alpha was administered and diaphragm tissue was examined post mortem. Chronic TNF-alpha treatment produced a significant decline in the synthesis of all types of myofibrillar proteins, namely heavy chain myosin, light chain myosin and G-actin. TNF-alpha impaired peptide-chain initiation in diaphragm muscle was reversed by the branched-chain amino acids (BCAA) therapy of TNF-alpha treated rats. The authors concluded that

"These findings indicate a significant [inhibitory] role for TNF-alpha in the translational regulation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle [which is reversed by BCAA administration ] (9) We see here a potential additive or even synergistic effect between citrulline malate and BCAAs in fighting muscle loss due to cytokines like TNF-alpha which are associated with illness, overtraining, and post anabolic steroid use."

In addition to blocking the muscle wasting catabolic effects of pro-inflammatory cytokines, BCAAs also seem to fight a tug of war with catabolic glucocorticoids. This suggests that under conditions such as stress or overtraining, BCAAs might help alleviate the catabolic effects of cortisol (10).

Leucine activates system A amino acid transport in skeletal muscle cells.

Just as glucose uptake into cells is dependent upon a family of so called GLUT (Glucose Transporters), amino acids are transported into cells by a distinct family of transporters. One main transport system is the so-called System A. In vitro studies have shown that leucine upregulates System A transporters, allowing for greater entry of a number of amino acids into muscle cells (11). It should be noted that one of the anabolic effects of IGF-1 is believed to be upregulation of this same transport system. So in this sense l